about the real fleet boat mod... - Page 2

tater · 06-05-07, 08:50 PM

I'm not sure I saw 2 shots in a row without a cut. I also never saw if it was actual combat shooting, or an exercise, no target was visible.

If it was so close they didn't need to wait to correct the fire, then balls out fire fore effect could indeed be fast. SH4 doesn't model but 1 ROF, though. I can fire (and land) more shots in any kind of sea than any IJN DD in SH4. That should speak volumes.

Monica Lewinsky · 06-05-07, 09:06 PM

I love it. Shut up.

perisher · 06-05-07, 09:09 PM

In a nutshell ROF is very variable due to many factors, like sea state, weather, wind, tide, lighting, boat design, crew training, captain's philosophy, crew fatigue, mission, target, target's reaction, to name a few, but SH4 allows one rate and one only.

nattydread · 06-05-07, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

IMO too many people involved in simulations (programmers/game designers included) get overly attached to specific technical numbers, and not outcomes.

There is a camp of people in WW2OL, for example, who are not fond of a statistical approach to artillery fire. One of the active forum members actually models HE effects for the military. He simulates what they wish to see as his day job, and he can test his models with real guns. He uses a statistical approach. The gamers want to have every fragment tracked through the air—nevermind that the DM of the troops is so abysmal—you get the idea, missing the forest for the trees.

If the deck gun moved with the deck (like the TBT) so you had to pick when to fire on the roll and pitch, I'd be for an increase in ROF. But only a little faster unless the game could also adjust ROF for sea state. The skipper can fire the gun with the deck awash, and since the ammo was passed from below, every time the deck is awash the compartment below is getting seriusly drenched. In some of the seas I have used the deck gun messing around, there is no question that the boat should have been down at the stern after a few shots, even with all the pumps running just from the fact the hatch was underwater for so bloody long.

When will that statiscal HE model be added in WWIIOnline? Is it just for frags, bombs, tanks rounds?

Sorry for the hijacking...Arrr!

TripleDaddy · 06-06-07, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Lewinsky

I love it. Shut up.

What he said.

AVGWarhawk · 06-06-07, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawlerz

u know i installed it just for kicks. and what...
the deck gun reload time is what threw me into involintary projectile vomiting almost immideately. wtf is up with that?
i mean all the other thing... for example: does it include the True Ship Dimention fix? i didnt catch that...
tchaaa, u know wha.. t? i think i'll go back to the original SH4 teaming with mods of different styles. probably better.

The great part about this game is you can uninstall things you do not like. If for any particular reason you do not like something about a mod, take it to the creater of the mod and inquire. I'm certainly sorry you wretched on the floor and you do not care for Berry's interpretation of ROF/load times but when you come up with a better solution, let us know. Until then, lets give Beery a break here, any attempt to make a game better certainly does not deserve a flame of what crap it is. Go find another mod or play vanilla. BTW, you get a full refund for the mod.....oh, never mind it was free

SteamWake · 06-06-07, 12:46 PM

Where can I get this Dimention fix ?

I could use a good dose of that.

Nightmare · 06-06-07, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Where can I get this Dimention fix ?

I could use a good dose of that.

I believe RFB already has the fix in place. However if you aren't running RFB it can be downloaded from: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109953

ming · 06-07-07, 09:39 AM

Last night I raided a Japanese harbor and tp'ed two boats but one did not go down. So I made sure it was safe and moved to within about 300 meters or so and opened a can on the survivor using the deck gun and the .50 cal. After about 60-70 rounds aimed at the water line she finally went down right there in the dock! Naturally it was about 0400 hrs so I could remain largely unseen. Oh yea, one more neat part of the encounter....Im running RFB 1.28! Nice work as always, Beery!

Beery · 06-20-07, 10:25 AM

How could I have missed this thread?

Regarding the German propaganda film, they show a deck gun firing two rounds in succession in about 5 seconds. Sorry to disappoint but this proves nothing other than that a boat with two rounds at the gun could fire those rounds in 5 seconds. We already know that, but that doesn't refute RFB's deck gun rate of fire.

Sure there was a ready-use ammo container and sure, rounds could be fired at a fast pace from this store. BUT it only contained 5-10% of the boat's deck gun ammo. The other thing is, this is a propaganda film - they're going to show a high rate of fire because that is effective cinema, but showing a gun firing at a fast rate does not prove anything more than that a gun COULD be fired at a fast rate. We already know that. The film doesn't show that the gun was being aimed at anything - it only shows it being fired fast and the film is cut together to give the impression that there's a target out there and to give the impression that that high rate of fire could be sustained.

What we need to know is how fast the deck gun could be fired under combat conditions where the crew has to supply the gun beyond the limits of the ready-use ammo store and where the gun has to be aimed at something, where rangefinding and adjustments in aim have to take place while the boat is pitching and rolling. This propaganda film does what propaganda films are meant to do - convince us by trickery that the fantasy they're showing us is factual.

The only evidence we can rely on is evidence from logbooks that were written at the time which timed engagements and listed the number of shells expended. If anyone who disputes RFB's rate of fire has such evidence they should present it and further the debate. If not they should shut up.

Anyone can say RFB's rate of fire is wrong. Hell, they can say the moon is made of pink blancmange. But we need proof, not opinion. We need a timed engagement where 40+ shells were fired from a WW2 sub's single deck gun with a start and end time for the engagement. We need at least 40 shells because we need to counteract the effect of the ready-use ammo container - because SH4 doesn't permit two separate reload rates for the two ammo stores. Anything less than a timed engagement in which 40+ shells were fired is a waste of everyone's time.

The best info I have right now from a US sub is an engagement from USS Nautilus's logbook. It doesn't quite meet the criteria I've set (it involves too great a proportion of ready-use ammo) but I think it is useful:

"0703 M August 17, 1942, commenced firing on Ukiangong Point area on
Makin Island. Covered area by shifting sights in range and deflection.
0711 M Checked fire.
0716 M August 17, 1942, commenced firing on ship anchorage area of
Makin Island. Radio spotting circuit was jammed or ineffective. Covered
area as thoroughly as possible by shifting sights in range and deflection
as necessary.
0723 M Checked fire, a total of 65 rounds of ammunition
having been expended."

That's 65 rounds in 15 minutes from two guns. That's 28 seconds per round per gun where the gun was not being aimed properly and where rangefinding and proper adjustments in aim could not be done. Around 40 of those rounds (20 per gun and nearly 2/3rds of the ammo fired) would have come from the ready-use ammo stores by the guns, so a longer engagement would have resulted in a slower rate of fire. Also, the rate of fire stated here does not take into account preparing the gun to fire. Still, the rate of fire in this engagement confirms RFB's rate of fire. Nautilus' crewmen reload their guns three seconds slower than RFB crewmen reload their 5" gun. Far from showing that RFB's reload rate is too slow this indicates that RFB's reload rate is TOO FAST.

We need more info to get RFB even more accurate. I imagine that further data will result in reducing the RFB deck gun's rate of fire to about 40 seconds per round.

GTHammer · 06-20-07, 12:50 PM

What i want to know is how/why after my install of RFB via JSGME did my deck gun's rate of fire remain the same as stock? Its possible that the destructive power of each shell has been reduced by the rate seems unaffected...anyone else have this or am I just a moron who messed up something in the install?

sqk7744 · 06-20-07, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawlerz

u know i installed it just for kicks. and what...
the deck gun reload time is what threw me into involintary projectile vomiting almost immideately. wtf is up with that?
i mean all the other thing... for example: does it include the True Ship Dimention fix? i didnt catch that...
tchaaa, u know wha.. t? i think i'll go back to the original SH4 teaming with mods of different styles. probably better.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112293&highlight=billy

The line for the Quake 3 Experience forms to the left. What part of REAL Fleet Boat mod did you not get?

sqk7744 · 06-20-07, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTHammer

What i want to know is how/why after my install of RFB via JSGME did my deck gun's rate of fire remain the same as stock? Its possible that the destructive power of each shell has been reduced by the rate seems unaffected...anyone else have this or am I just a moron who messed up something in the install?

---
Try starting a new career (or from port between patrols) as a test and see how the deck gun responds.

SteamWake · 06-20-07, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

they can say the moon is made of pink blancmange.

Oh yea ! Prove otherwise ! :p

joea · 06-21-07, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sqk7744

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112293&highlight=billy

The line for the Quake 3 Experience forms to the left. What part of REAL Fleet Boat mod did you not get?

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

06-05-07, 08:50 PM	#16
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I'm not sure I saw 2 shots in a row without a cut. I also never saw if it was actual combat shooting, or an exercise, no target was visible. If it was so close they didn't need to wait to correct the fire, then balls out fire fore effect could indeed be fast. SH4 doesn't model but 1 ROF, though. I can fire (and land) more shots in any kind of sea than any IJN DD in SH4. That should speak volumes. Last edited by tater; 06-05-07 at 10:22 PM.

06-05-07, 09:06 PM	#17
Monica Lewinsky Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 845 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I love it. Shut up. __________________ Sink them all!

06-05-07, 09:09 PM	#18
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	In a nutshell ROF is very variable due to many factors, like sea state, weather, wind, tide, lighting, boat design, crew training, captain's philosophy, crew fatigue, mission, target, target's reaction, to name a few, but SH4 allows one rate and one only. __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

06-20-07, 10:25 AM	#25
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	How could I have missed this thread? Regarding the German propaganda film, they show a deck gun firing two rounds in succession in about 5 seconds. Sorry to disappoint but this proves nothing other than that a boat with two rounds at the gun could fire those rounds in 5 seconds. We already know that, but that doesn't refute RFB's deck gun rate of fire. Sure there was a ready-use ammo container and sure, rounds could be fired at a fast pace from this store. BUT it only contained 5-10% of the boat's deck gun ammo. The other thing is, this is a propaganda film - they're going to show a high rate of fire because that is effective cinema, but showing a gun firing at a fast rate does not prove anything more than that a gun COULD be fired at a fast rate. We already know that. The film doesn't show that the gun was being aimed at anything - it only shows it being fired fast and the film is cut together to give the impression that there's a target out there and to give the impression that that high rate of fire could be sustained. What we need to know is how fast the deck gun could be fired under combat conditions where the crew has to supply the gun beyond the limits of the ready-use ammo store and where the gun has to be aimed at something, where rangefinding and adjustments in aim have to take place while the boat is pitching and rolling. This propaganda film does what propaganda films are meant to do - convince us by trickery that the fantasy they're showing us is factual. The only evidence we can rely on is evidence from logbooks that were written at the time which timed engagements and listed the number of shells expended. If anyone who disputes RFB's rate of fire has such evidence they should present it and further the debate. If not they should shut up. Anyone can say RFB's rate of fire is wrong. Hell, they can say the moon is made of pink blancmange. But we need proof, not opinion. We need a timed engagement where 40+ shells were fired from a WW2 sub's single deck gun with a start and end time for the engagement. We need at least 40 shells because we need to counteract the effect of the ready-use ammo container - because SH4 doesn't permit two separate reload rates for the two ammo stores. Anything less than a timed engagement in which 40+ shells were fired is a waste of everyone's time. The best info I have right now from a US sub is an engagement from USS Nautilus's logbook. It doesn't quite meet the criteria I've set (it involves too great a proportion of ready-use ammo) but I think it is useful: "0703 M August 17, 1942, commenced firing on Ukiangong Point area on Makin Island. Covered area by shifting sights in range and deflection. 0711 M Checked fire. 0716 M August 17, 1942, commenced firing on ship anchorage area of Makin Island. Radio spotting circuit was jammed or ineffective. Covered area as thoroughly as possible by shifting sights in range and deflection as necessary. 0723 M Checked fire, a total of 65 rounds of ammunition having been expended." That's 65 rounds in 15 minutes from two guns. That's 28 seconds per round per gun where the gun was not being aimed properly and where rangefinding and proper adjustments in aim could not be done. Around 40 of those rounds (20 per gun and nearly 2/3rds of the ammo fired) would have come from the ready-use ammo stores by the guns, so a longer engagement would have resulted in a slower rate of fire. Also, the rate of fire stated here does not take into account preparing the gun to fire. Still, the rate of fire in this engagement confirms RFB's rate of fire. Nautilus' crewmen reload their guns three seconds slower than RFB crewmen reload their 5" gun. Far from showing that RFB's reload rate is too slow this indicates that RFB's reload rate is TOO FAST. We need more info to get RFB even more accurate. I imagine that further data will result in reducing the RFB deck gun's rate of fire to about 40 seconds per round. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen. Last edited by Beery; 06-20-07 at 10:56 AM.

06-20-07, 12:50 PM	#26
GTHammer Machinist's Mate Join Date: May 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 127 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	What i want to know is how/why after my install of RFB via JSGME did my deck gun's rate of fire remain the same as stock? Its possible that the destructive power of each shell has been reduced by the rate seems unaffected...anyone else have this or am I just a moron who messed up something in the install? __________________ GT USS Hammer

06-06-07, 12:46 PM	#22
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Where can I get this Dimention fix ? I could use a good dose of that.

06-07-07, 09:39 AM	#24
ming Loader Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 90 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	Last night I raided a Japanese harbor and tp'ed two boats but one did not go down. So I made sure it was safe and moved to within about 300 meters or so and opened a can on the survivor using the deck gun and the .50 cal. After about 60-70 rounds aimed at the water line she finally went down right there in the dock! Naturally it was about 0400 hrs so I could remain largely unseen. Oh yea, one more neat part of the encounter....Im running RFB 1.28! Nice work as always, Beery!