Petition to S.C.S for a SDK

[Sea Demon]

I vote for us trying to build more support for DW, so maybe Sonalysts will just build us new add-ons. Seems to me that that's the only way with this sim. They're only going to do it if it's profitable for them. And I wouldn't expect it any other way. This poll is not useful in any way.

[LuftWolf]

I vote for someone else to mod DW besides me. :p

But I guess there is no glory in fixing a broken sim, only in making shiny new toys.

Anyone out there in the ether interested and capable of importing the SCXIIc non-playable platforms into the DW database? If so, please PM me as soon as practicable.

Cheers,
David

[Nightmare]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I vote for us trying to build more support for DW, so maybe Sonalysts will just build us new add-ons. Seems to me that that's the only way with this sim. They're only going to do it if it's profitable for them. And I wouldn't expect it any other way. This poll is not useful in any way.

Jamie, before he left S.C.S, stated that DW was a disappointment as far as sales went that it failed to meet S.C.S financial goals. Jamie also mentioned that they had to now focus on more profitable areas of their business. Now I don’t know if this means that they didn’t make any or much money or not. However I believe by that statement that the future of DW is pretty dim. If DW was considered a financial failure by it’s creators, I don’t possibly see them supporting it beyond where the game currently is now.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by OneShot

We can ask SCS for a lot of things but this is something we most likely wont get ... why? Because DW is just an offspin of SCS product for its goverment customers. They make money by creating platforms and stuff for them. Guess what they don't want ... that those customers can get their new platforms and whatnot for free.

Probably true. But perhaps a limited SDK would be possible. The limitation could be, that you cannot create new units but that you could enhance the existing ones and other areas, like AI, engine, mission editor and so on.

Regarding the comparison to SBPro. I don't know the license politics of SCS in detail, but is DW not only licensable to endusers and not to commercial/government users?

Anyway, an official statement of SCS regarding this issue and the future of DW in general, would be nice. In the other case, this topic arise in the community on a regulary basis, which does not have any positive effects.

[OneShot]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Probably true. But perhaps a limited SDK would be possible. The limitation could be, that you cannot create new units but that you could enhance the existing ones and other areas, like AI, engine, mission editor and so on.

Well we do have sort of an limited SDK already ... We can play around with the doctrines and the database, we have a powerful mission editor, we can tamper with the graphics and the sound to some extend (tho we dont have access to the engine itself). What we cant do is play around with the hardcoded AI, interfaces and all the stuff thats in the engine itself.

In other words we do have already a lot of possibilities to play around with the game, however only few of the community have taken the steps to work on those ... And aside from things in the game there is a lot of stuff relating to the game that could be done and again only a small number is actually doing something in those areas. For example comprehensive tutorials (yes we do have some, but some areas - especially the FFG are still pretty sparse), wider range of missions (you know there are more then just the sub platforms in the game ... the majority of missions still centers around the sub platforms). So, lots of possibilities, but whenever there is a call for stuff you see a lot of views on the relevant posts on the forum but zero answers.

But when somebody wants to petition SCS for new platforms, everybody jumps on the bandwagon and everything will be better - if SCS could just include a Tico, Burke, another sub, SSBN, whatever (fill in your favourite platform). Sure, its a lot easier to use stuff others made then put in some time yourself.

Btw. : Big thanks and kudos to all the modders, mission designers and everybody else in the community who try to enrich the game and our experience with it.

Cheers
OS

[Hawk66]

No reason to be angry. As you perhaps know, I've already started work on a tool (RandomEnviornment). Hence, I'm not just passive and 'whining'.

The mission editor is indeed powerful but in some areas the engine/AI have deficits. Specially in that areas, which you've mentioned (non-Sub) and when you want to include air platforms you reach the limit of the engine.

A SDK would just enrich the possibilites, nothing more. Have a look at those games/sims, which provide one (or a 'real' script language) like Civ4,ArmedAssault and Orbiter and how the AddOns 'boosted' the original sim.

[LuftWolf]

It's hard to see who is going to make all these future mods when we can't even get a list of playable scenarios together.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=105791

Cheers,
David

[kage]

There's something I'd rather see than an SDK allowing external pieces of software to be attached to the game.

A proper scripting language - perhaps Python, or LUA, - and the ability to do these things through it:

All the things that can be done by current "scripts" (actionlists would be a better name)
Get the position of an object
Transform a position
Create a new object
Move an object
Create a trigger, possibly attaching it to an object.
Set the status of each and every sensor on an object, player or not. (Damaged, passive, active)
Ditto for weapons systems, perhaps even to the point of controlling each round being fired.
Create text messages on the fly and send to players, with the possibility of only doing it if they are able to receive right at that moment.
Change the environmental conditions

Here's a couple example scenarios:
-A plane has an accident, breakdown, or gets shot down.
Get its position, Tell the player _where_ the bailout occurred by radio message (wherever it was) create a downed pilot at that location, create and attach an approach (pickup) trigger, and activate a "radio beacon" sensor (detects nothing but is counterdetected by esm) - though that sensor would likely have to be added by mod. (For a script to create, for a scenario, a new sensor, launcher, or object, would be great, but probably way beyond reasonable.) When a ship does get close, activate a flare launcher.
-Have a ship start using active sonar the moment it detects an enemy, and not before.
-Implement random neutrals in a truly run-time randomized way.
-Randomizing environmentals run-time.


And let's not forget, an in-game editor worth more than two grains of salt
Perhaps the ability to override doctrines and AI on an individual basis. Builtin Voice comms and Join-In-Progress - there's just sooooooo many things I'd like to see done to this game that would make it better.

Will it be worth the effort (to SCS) to do these things though?

[Dr.Sid]

DW is dead. Face it.

[UglyMowgli]

I ask SCS for the replay format file for some months, I am waiting ...zzzzzzzzzzzz (they have to check if they can release it)

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

DW is dead. Face it.

Ouch. That's a bit dire.

I'd say it's about 35% of the way through it's life cycle with over half left to go.

Considering it's most likely the first and last multiplatform naval sim (Battlestations: Midway DOES NOT count) of the last, this, and most likely the next generation of hardware, anyone in the world who suddenly decides they want to play such a game is basically stuck with one choice, so long as it is still available.

The problem is simple: DW never had and currently does not have the same level of community support that SC enjoyed during the development of SCX.

Any number of things can solve the problem, but the simple fact is that right now most of the old guard is gone, what's left is tired, and little of the new blood has stayed long enough to matter.

Compound that with the fact that this community has FAR more sub-divisions vis-a-vis virtual fleets and even modding groups than it should (not all are SubSim projects but this lay of the land thank you SCS), so what's left is diffused to the point that no one ever talks to one another in any meaningful way, except on the rare occasion there is a common complaint.

Cheers,
David

PS As a follow-up, SCS screwed the pooch big time by leaving Battlefront. First of all, they wound up sinking A LOT more money into a developing distribution networks that returned a lot less of the final sale price to SCS. Second, they essentially auto-destructed the fledgling community of primarily Battlefront customers (of which I was one, having come to the product because I trusted BF) that was co-existing on the BFC forums and here at SubSim. Third, they totally missed the boat on getting on-board with the world-wide distribution capabilities and prowess of CDV, a FAR better publisher than STEAM, Strategy First, and BlackBean or whatever it's called, which has a history of doing full box distributions of games that were successful for some time at Battlefront (the Combat Mission series), which DW would have been, if they had simply given it time to catch some buzz.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Ouch. That's a bit dire.

I'd say it's about 35% of the way through it's life cycle with over half left to go.

Considering it's most likely the first and last multiplatform naval sim (Battlestations: Midway DOES NOT count) of the last, this, and most likely the next generation of hardware, anyone in the world who suddenly decides they want to play such a game is basically stuck with one choice, so long as it is still available.

Probably True. And I like the idea of a limited SDK (or call it just a limited script integration) of Kage, because it would not harm the core business of SCS and would be much less effort as a general SDK.

Personally, I don't need new plattforms/mods, I find the existing variety good and sufficient. But what I really miss is that I have a tool to be really creative in mission design, like Kage has particulized. I've wasted hours when I've tried to create complex mission, which involved air plattforms etc. At first I've found it funny, when , for example, AAW missiles did a 180 degree turnaround and vanished and so on. But after a couple of hours I got angry and lost interest.

You can compare it with ArmedAssault in a rough way. The engine is far from being perfect. But you can find a lot of workarounds in mission design by using the provided script language and control of the AI behaviour. It even makes fun to play with these tools.

At least I would like to have some kind of feedback of SCS on this issue, if they have still at least some basic interest in customer relations for their 'entertainment' branch. Getting in touch with the communiy to discuss this matter from their perspective in a constructive way costs only a limited time and even might leed to a solution, which is acceptable by both parties.

Hope dies last.

[Dr.Sid]

Hope died last .. but mine died already .. :rotfl:
Not that I don't enjoy the game. I just consider it 'old game' like let's say first Tomb Raider.

[Frying Tiger]

Since I've posted here and on the SCS boards that no decisions one way or the other have been made on DW future patches, upgrades, or anything else, and I'd let you know when there was a decision, what more can I say at this point?

No decisions have been made. Still. Sonalysts has a lot of projects, and likes to work on stuff that makes money. DW didn't make money. So it's an uphill battle to get the company to finance more work on it, unless we (the game unit) can make a compelling case it will be good for the bottom line.

That said, the game unit likes working on games, so we're listening to this stuff, even if we don't have much response on a day to day basis. I prefer (as a customer myself of SCS and other sims) not to blow happy gas around, and then have to walk it back if harsh economic reality rears its ugly head! (grin)

[Dr.Sid]

Sure .. ideas always comes handy. Expectations hardly so. That's what I mean.

Anyway since I can afford not being 'correct' I read Tiger's 'not decided yet' as 'dead for now'.