night attacks on convoys

supposedtobeworking · 03-16-07, 11:18 PM

Ok I'm in Oct 1941 and am about to engage a convoy and it is about 1AM local time. Pitch black out using 16km visibility--weather is clear. I'm using GWX 1.02 and am in a VIIC. Now...

I've spotted a whale factory ship which I am going after -- it looks like it is near the aft end of the convoy. I am still not real sure how sensetive the AI visuals are, so would I get my clock cleaned if I stayed on the surface and went inside the convoy in between the lanes (roughly 7-800mtrs from a ship on either side). Would I get spotted and reported, and then hunted by AI DDs? Or should I go to Peri Depth and lurk to the Whale ship that way risking audio sonar detection?

In short, should I attempt a surface night attack in a convoy or not? was this done historically. The ship is not on an outside column but maybe 1 or 2 columns in--it is a large convoy... My inclination is to remain at Periscope depth and make an approach submerged even though it is dark...but I was wondering about a surface attack...

Zero Niner · 03-17-07, 12:09 AM

I've not had musch experience in convoy attacks, but I think as far as GWX is concerned it'd be difficult for you to penetrate w/o being spotted.
What I do is to lie in wait ahead of the convoy, at periscope depth, ahead slow & silent running. You'll have to time yor approach such that the escorts come no nearer than say 2km to be safe. Pick your targets, launch your tubes then get out to relaod & recharge before you try again.

supposedtobeworking · 03-17-07, 12:23 AM

how do you time your approach? I have the nomograph and the time sheets in the upper corner in the map screen. I assume you use those? I have tried to do a little timing, but it is always just a guesstimating type of planning and pretty sloppy. Do you have a more methodical procedure for timing an approach like this? I have not got the knack of mapping out the escorts search patterns yet--that would probably help--it seems like it would be a very tedious process of calculations to plan such a timed approach--is your method of doing such very complicated?

Mush Martin · 03-17-07, 04:20 AM

when doing initial positioning infront of the convoy what I do
is I draw a line projecting from just aft of the convoy to well
outside the engagement area. the line runs directly through
the convoy centre and along the convoys track

I generally measure distance from centrline to outside row of ships
I will then either draw a perpendicular line off of the centreline
to mark where the nearest edge of the convoy will pass.
I do not mark on the escorts they will outride somewhere near 700
yds outside the line marking the outer edge of convoy.

depending on where in the convoy the target is located I position to
be within 1500 to 2000 yds of where that ship will pass in front of me
in relation to the centre line. observations will indicate roughly what sort of
escorts are going to be in the vicinity at firing point

you should actually be a about 1000 yds from the escort as he passes
(assuming your target in 2nd or 3rd row) and about 1500 to 2000
yds from the target ship)

Where possible complete all maneuvers prior to convoy moving to
within four thousand metres of the engagement zone.
so as you can lie in wait at silent running all stop to be safe.
it is also a good idea assuming the situation allows it to
position your ship in such a way that you are already
pointed towards your evasion course out of the area
prior to firing.

for me I usually attack from 2 km off the track -135 degrees off the
convoy course and will shoot at longer ranges than recommended by
the book, that extra 500 yds can make a difference in your egress
of the area. optionally the perpendicular shot has the advantage
that after shooting you are already passing behind the convoy
and if your course is roughly the reverse course of the convoy
you gain distance from the surface group rapidly. the hit will
detach the escorts from the convoy but you should be 2 or 3 minutes
down the evasion road by the time that happens.

it isnt perfect nor is it well described but it should give you the
idea project the convoy course measure the convoy layout the
attack of choice during the planning phase maneuver to postion
Wait, wait some more fire torps begin evasion silently and go.
and then is when the hits should happen.

supposedtobeworking · 03-17-07, 02:06 PM

ok cool thanks mush martin that is good info. I am still confused on how to time actions though. Your description gave me a good idea of distances and angles, but how does one go about landing in the right spot at the right time, so to speak? that is the question that still evades me and it seems that other users are able to time this out--im just curious how some go about it.

Brag · 03-17-07, 03:46 PM

You can't really time except approximately, if you have the speed of the convoy you can project the position of the target at a certain time and be in good firing position to hit it.

Mush Martin · 03-17-07, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supposedtobeworking

ok cool thanks mush martin that is good info. I am still confused on how to time actions though. Your description gave me a good idea of distances and angles, but how does one go about landing in the right spot at the right time, so to speak? that is the question that still evades me and it seems that other users are able to time this out--im just curious how some go about it.

to paraphrase sun tzu he who awaits his enemy at ease will be victorious

get into position ahead of the convoy and wait for them to come to you.
as they come into firing range the timing takes care of itself. however
you may want your first target or first two to go by your firing point
a little before opening fire. whether a perpendiclar or obtuse attack.

a little more on timing in attacks though. In order to maximize
the effect of surprise, it is a good idea when shooting mulitple
targets to shoot them in sequence all at once from furthest
away to nearest in that order. the idea being after a bit of
practice to figure out timing and ranges to have all your torpedos
strike as close to simultaneously as possible. by this method
target ships have less possiblility of evasion if all are hit simultaneously
and escorts cant close you while your trying still to shoot your
last three fish. by this method you should already be started your
evasion maneuvers prior to the escort or targets being aware
of your presence.

Good Hunting

MM

MM

03-16-07, 11:18 PM	#1
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	night attacks on convoys Ok I'm in Oct 1941 and am about to engage a convoy and it is about 1AM local time. Pitch black out using 16km visibility--weather is clear. I'm using GWX 1.02 and am in a VIIC. Now... I've spotted a whale factory ship which I am going after -- it looks like it is near the aft end of the convoy. I am still not real sure how sensetive the AI visuals are, so would I get my clock cleaned if I stayed on the surface and went inside the convoy in between the lanes (roughly 7-800mtrs from a ship on either side). Would I get spotted and reported, and then hunted by AI DDs? Or should I go to Peri Depth and lurk to the Whale ship that way risking audio sonar detection? In short, should I attempt a surface night attack in a convoy or not? was this done historically. The ship is not on an outside column but maybe 1 or 2 columns in--it is a large convoy... My inclination is to remain at Periscope depth and make an approach submerged even though it is dark...but I was wondering about a surface attack...

03-17-07, 04:20 AM	#4
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	when doing initial positioning infront of the convoy what I do is I draw a line projecting from just aft of the convoy to well outside the engagement area. the line runs directly through the convoy centre and along the convoys track I generally measure distance from centrline to outside row of ships I will then either draw a perpendicular line off of the centreline to mark where the nearest edge of the convoy will pass. I do not mark on the escorts they will outride somewhere near 700 yds outside the line marking the outer edge of convoy. depending on where in the convoy the target is located I position to be within 1500 to 2000 yds of where that ship will pass in front of me in relation to the centre line. observations will indicate roughly what sort of escorts are going to be in the vicinity at firing point you should actually be a about 1000 yds from the escort as he passes (assuming your target in 2nd or 3rd row) and about 1500 to 2000 yds from the target ship) Where possible complete all maneuvers prior to convoy moving to within four thousand metres of the engagement zone. so as you can lie in wait at silent running all stop to be safe. it is also a good idea assuming the situation allows it to position your ship in such a way that you are already pointed towards your evasion course out of the area prior to firing. for me I usually attack from 2 km off the track -135 degrees off the convoy course and will shoot at longer ranges than recommended by the book, that extra 500 yds can make a difference in your egress of the area. optionally the perpendicular shot has the advantage that after shooting you are already passing behind the convoy and if your course is roughly the reverse course of the convoy you gain distance from the surface group rapidly. the hit will detach the escorts from the convoy but you should be 2 or 3 minutes down the evasion road by the time that happens. it isnt perfect nor is it well described but it should give you the idea project the convoy course measure the convoy layout the attack of choice during the planning phase maneuver to postion Wait, wait some more fire torps begin evasion silently and go. and then is when the hits should happen. __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

03-17-07, 03:46 PM	#6
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	You can't really time except approximately, if you have the speed of the convoy you can project the position of the target at a certain time and be in good firing position to hit it. __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

03-17-07, 12:09 AM	#2
Zero Niner Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,033 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	I've not had musch experience in convoy attacks, but I think as far as GWX is concerned it'd be difficult for you to penetrate w/o being spotted. What I do is to lie in wait ahead of the convoy, at periscope depth, ahead slow & silent running. You'll have to time yor approach such that the escorts come no nearer than say 2km to be safe. Pick your targets, launch your tubes then get out to relaod & recharge before you try again.

03-17-07, 12:23 AM	#3
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	how do you time your approach? I have the nomograph and the time sheets in the upper corner in the map screen. I assume you use those? I have tried to do a little timing, but it is always just a guesstimating type of planning and pretty sloppy. Do you have a more methodical procedure for timing an approach like this? I have not got the knack of mapping out the escorts search patterns yet--that would probably help--it seems like it would be a very tedious process of calculations to plan such a timed approach--is your method of doing such very complicated?

03-17-07, 02:06 PM	#5
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	ok cool thanks mush martin that is good info. I am still confused on how to time actions though. Your description gave me a good idea of distances and angles, but how does one go about landing in the right spot at the right time, so to speak? that is the question that still evades me and it seems that other users are able to time this out--im just curious how some go about it.