New Virginia SSNs

[Lurchi]

What always interested me while comparing the Seawolf with the Virginia:

Does anyone know why they went back to the armament concept of the 688(I), 4 Torpedo Tubes + VLS? Costs?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Lurchi

What always interested me while comparing the Seawolf with the Virginia:

Does anyone know why they went back to the armament concept of the 688(I), 4 Torpedo Tubes + VLS? Costs?

This is an increase in available loaded ordnance at any given time. You can have anti-surface/anti-ship missiles loaded and ready to use while keeping your 533 mm tubes reserved for ADCAPs. It all comes down to the new requirements for military platforms engaging multiple targets simultaneously; no different than the F22.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

To make sure that they do that, I'd threaten them by saying that if they don't make a design that's really smaller and cheaper, I'd go for AIP-diesel subs. That OUGHTA force them to do a good job..

AIP, while very quiet, is still in it's infancy and is not suitable for the long-range projection requirements of the US Navy. Any such threat would, accordingly, be empty.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

AIP, while very quiet, is still in it's infancy and is not suitable for the long-range projection requirements of the US Navy. Any such threat would, accordingly, be empty.

Would it? Right now, many are arguing for a mix of AIPs and nukes for the future sub force as more suitable for the increased littoral work subs have to do. The Submarine Mafia has historically fought against this like mad, but we can probably use this against them.

Remember, the civilians set the requirements, not the Navy. If we force them to strict budgetary limits (per boat) and HOLD THEM TO IT, they'd be forced to either go to AIP subs or build economical SSNs like they promised to build with sodding Virginia back when it was called Centurion.

Either is fine by me, but the United States can only afford so much cost-bloated equipment, no matter how qualitatively superior they may be (see also: F-22). And Virginia was supposed to be the JSF to the Seawolf's F-22.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Would it? Right now, many are arguing for a mix of AIPs and nukes for the future sub force as more suitable for the increased littoral work subs have to do. The Submarine Mafia has historically fought against this like mad, but we can probably use this against them.

Remember, the civilians set the requirements, not the Navy. If we force them to strict budgetary limits (per boat) and HOLD THEM TO IT, they'd be forced to either go to AIP subs or build economical SSNs like they promised to build with sodding Virginia back when it was called Centurion.

Either is fine by me, but the United States can only afford so much cost-bloated equipment, no matter how qualitatively superior they may be (see also: F-22). And Virginia was supposed to be the JSF to the Seawolf's F-22.

Wonderful, but AIPs still do not meet the requirements for global force projection. Until the technology develops fully, you won't see AIPs in the service of the USN. Even a simplified view of USN history tells you that the navy has never produced two competitive forms of propulsion at the same time. The so-called 'submarine mafia' has seen to that.

Regarding comparison with the F22: I know. I made that comparison several posts ago.

[Linton]

A brief history of AIP:http://www.navyleague.org/seapower/aip_alternative.htm

[TteFAboB]

Can AIP move subs this big?

[geetrue]

Imagine that just for a moment we were all on a design team for General Dynamics and the US Navy had an extra 1.5 billion dollars in it's secret budget for us to play with ... What kind of submarine could we come up with?

Remember now it takes at least ten (10) years to scratch build a nuclear submarine.

I did this in some leisure time I had back in 1995, you know just on paper and then a friend told me it would take twenty years to complete the project. He busted my bubble and I gave up.

The project? To build a seaplane so big it could take off with two small diesel submarine's and drop them off anywhere in the world in a matter of hours.

What would ya'll suggest?

Perhaps we could stay closer to reality by using present day technology the Seawolf and Virginia have provided.

[Linton]

Geetrue,I think an ekranoplan would have been a better bet than a seaplane.

[Kapitan]

Seawolf is constructed of HY-100 grade steel the virginia is constructed with HY-80 standard steel meaning the seawolf can dive deeper the steel is stronger.

Seawolf is the more advanced and quieter of the two but in terms of weapons the SSN-774 takes it with the VLS tubes.

Americans make advanced but dull looking submarines its only realy now they have started to change the look.

[Kapitan]

Also becareful what you find on the internet people like fas.org dont always post correct information and if its about in service or active submarines you can bet your life its not correct.

[loynokid]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Also becareful what you find on the internet people like fas.org dont always post correct information and if its about in service or active submarines you can bet your life its not correct.

Thanks for the tips on the internet. compliments as always

[Kapitan]

The good thing about fas.org is they take in to account the parameters and specification of a certain unit then put all that into a calculation then spit out a rough idea of what the ship or submarine can do.

They state the project 941 akula (typhoon) is the following:

Displacement
23,200-24,500 tons Surfaced
33,800-48,000 tons Submerged
Maximum diving depth
500 meters


Now i do know that the typhoon has diffrent maximum diving depth here its very clear to me that fas.org got it wrong, the true depth is in the order of 330 meters to 450meters in and around that area.

Thats just an example but dont ask about american submarines not that up to date with them at all infact theres one heck of alot i dont know about them.

But i will say this though.

Even if they lack the speed and diving depths of the russians they are still far superior boats and i personaly think that the odds of a russian sinking an american would be around 3 to 1.

[fatty]

Originally Posted by geetrue

What would ya'll suggest?

An interesting question, geetrue.

I think "multi-mission at a bargain" would be the name of the game; something able to operate in coastal regions, deploying SEALs and launching salvos of land-attack cruise missiles, but also able to tangle in blue water with the naval powers of tomorrow. Nuclear propulsion is a must, for the obvious reasons already stated here. The Virginia comes very close to fitting this role but is still pretty frigging expensive, currently moreso than the Seawolf.

It's difficult for us to imagine how to make these things cheaper. There aren't many details available about what kind of gadgets go into building modern submarines, so it's hard to say "oh, xyz system is kind of superfluous, let's nix that and save $10 million." .

IMHO a good place to start would be to use cheaper/thinner hull materials to build smaller boats while sacrificing max. depth.

[geetrue]

Without bragging (that's a no, no) I was privilege to privileged information that the Russians in the 1970's could not match our quality of supplying spare parts for our FBM submarines ...

We had parts everywhere, hidden behind the tubes, under the deck, in the overhead, hidden in every compartment, wrapped in paper, sealed in little plastic bags, guarded by our own onboard supplyman, his only job was to inventroy, catalog and resupply our MM's with the 100's of o rings they went through every patrol. I saw the inventory on IBM style paper, complete list were available before we left, all had to be made up somewhere that had a computer, but I don't remember seeing a computer on board in those days.

Logistic's makes America number one ...

So that people like me and my Chief sonarman from the old school could say, such and such part was broken and replace it just to see if that was the one ... You know ala tube tester at the local drug store.

Oh we were bad, uh? But real sonar tech's wing it ... lol