Radar questions

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

If the radar emitter is 25 feet above the waterline and the detector antenna on a large target is 80 feet up (high on the mast), then the detector can sniff the emitter at 17 nm.

This begs the question of where the radar detection equipment actually was. I did some looking around on this and couldn't find jack. Regardless, I would actually be surprised if the IJN detection systems didn't have a range advantage over the us radars. I'm not sure that the range advantage is all that significant though. In other words, can the warning system provide enough information early enough to prevent the submarine from making contact? I just don't have enough information to make an accurate assessment.


As an aside, I would probably operationally run the radar in single sweep mode, with checks every 15 minutes or so until contact. I have a lot of reasons for this thinking I might expand on later. However, as far as the game goes, that's just too much work for me to actually do so it stays on.

[Rockin Robbins]

But how can a radar detector prevent a submarine from making contact. It's not like the radar detector has a screen with a submarine shaped pip on it. The detector has a needle that says signal detected, strength x. No direction. No range. No avoidance possible. As Shinano shows, any attempt to evade is as likely to put you in more danger than if you had never intercepted the radar signal.

We're making a boogyman out of a simple radar detection where all you have is (at best) some idea of the strength of the signal and no supporting data.

The reality of the situation is when you intercept the signal you can draw a circle of a certain size that we can't agree on fifty years later and say "there's something with radar somewhere in the circle." How do you maneuver to avoid that?

[ColonelSandersLite]

Not sure why you think that a radar warning system doesn't let you determine direction. It's simple radio direction finding, which was well understood by everyone at the time. It is true that it doesn't provide distance, but there are two major ways to do so.

1: Multiple ships detecting the direction allows triangulation. At those ranges the angles involved would cause inaccuracy, but gives a general idea, probably to within a mile or two.
2: Passive TMA. Check here: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=38 page 26.

[aanker]

Originally Posted by FuriousEagle

Does enemy has radar (in the game logic)? If so, will you appear on their radar when not submerged?

Yes, depending on the Navy, the enemy has radar at roughly the appropriate times for that Navy; USN, IJN, etc, and yes you will be detected if surfaced when you're in range. In the Stock game radar is 'mounted' on some ships that didn't have radar. I think the super-mods correct this and a stand alone mod may exist. In my install, I removed the radar from the ships that didn't have it.

The RAF & US radar is better than the Axis radars, in-game and in real life.
Historically, the Allied radar could actually detect U-Boat snorkels by the end of the War. The RAF & US aircraft had radar too of course, so add a Leigh light to the wing of a Liberator with radar, and U-Boats could be attacked 24 hours/day.

When my radar is on, will it increase the chance of being spotted by the enemy radar as well? I mean both in the game and in real life.

I leave my radar on until I make a contact, then cut down on the sweeps.

In addition to radar, is there a safe distance on which i can use a sonar to gather distance? Obviously i'm referring to situations where you have escort near the merchant, so i would like to know if i should use sonar mainly only when i'm sure that merchant is alone (which by guess i don't think otherwise the whole thing would be useless).

Unless it is a lone unarmed merchant, I don't ping for range. They can hear the ping and will be alerted that a sub is out there. I use passive sonar only.

Happy Hunting!

Liberator Leigh Light:

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

"I'll run silent much of the time, with random aperiodic sweeps. And we will probably both be playing the game the way RL skippers historically operated."

Except you'll be playing like Pinky Kennedy fought and Rockin Robbins and I will be playing like Morton and O'kane.

Play it safe it you want to but unorthodox tactics in real life sunk the most tonnage.

“I liked patroling without emitting any radar or other signals....”

“...just by chance, for Tang had made no electrical emissions that the enemy might detect....”

“The conversation revolved around limitations of radar usage....”

“’Radar signals on the APR-1, Captain.’ Our new radar detector, installed during our refit, was responsible. Though nondirectional, like our SD, it would keep us posted on the presence of enemy radar. Best of all, it emitted no signal of its own to betray our presence.”

“Surely an island outfitted with a search radar would also have the relatively simple receivers to detect the radar of an enemy. Our caution may have been excessive, but our quick SJ searches were covering the critical areas.”

“Again, we had one objective: To make our presence known only by our torpedo detonations.”

This night, I penned normal night orders, ‘...The SD radar is secured and will be turned on only with my permission. The SJ heaters are on. Require sweeps and reports by the operator every 10 minutes and search continuously commencing a half hour before morning twilight till daylight....Do not be lulled by the 2500 miles between us and the enemy’s front door. He can be here just as surely as we will be there.”

All of the passages quoted are from Clear the Bridge: The War Patrols of the USS Tang”, written by Richard H. O’Kane, RAdm, USN (Ret).

[Crannogman]

Originally Posted by aanker

Unless it is a lone unarmed merchant, I don't ping for range. They can hear the ping and will be alerted that a sub is out there. I use passive sonar only.

I agree, I only ping when engaging with deck gun at long range. At that point they know where you are, and you need good data to make the kill before they hit you

[merc4ulfate]

"our quick SJ searches were covering the critical areas"

In other words I used it sparingly because I had a lack of knowledge on how well the enemy could pick up the signal which at those time they could not.

But he still used it.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

"our quick SJ searches were covering the critical areas"

In other words I used it sparingly because I had a lack of knowledge on how well the enemy could pick up the signal which at those time they could not.

But he still used it.

Of course he used it. He used iit just as any prudent skipper used it. The same way I recommended using it. Prudently and sparingly. Just enough, and no more.

Reread the passage I quoted. The one from his "usual" night orders. Better yet, read the whole book. Read Beach, Calvert, Fluckey, Gallantin, Ruiz. You can learn from them how RL sub skippers thought and what they did. You can learn a lot of things you can incorporate into your play of SH4. It will make the game more interesting and improve your performance.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

Didn't the IJN have directional radar receivers?

No. Otherwise Shinano, very late in the war, might have turned away wouldn't they? They had signal strength indicators at best.

"I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come) With speculation comes stupid moves that you can exploit. Of course the game does what it does but if you're role playing you would use such things.

If you find yourself in a fair fight you just didn't plan adequately. And there are few situations more lopsided in your favor as when you're running radar and they detect you. The odds are MUCH better than if you are not running radar and they do not detect you. It's your responsibility not to give the sucker an even chance. Leverage that advantage for all it's worth. Failure to do so is dereliction of duty.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

No. Otherwise Shinano, very late in the war, might have turned away wouldn't they? They had signal strength indicators at best.

"I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come) With speculation comes stupid moves that you can exploit. Of course the game does what it does but if you're role playing you would use such things.

If you find yourself in a fair fight you just didn't plan adequately. And there are few situations more lopsided in your favor as when you're running radar and they detect you. The odds are MUCH better than if you are not running radar and they do not detect you. It's your responsibility not to give the sucker an even chance. Leverage that advantage for all it's worth. Failure to do so is dereliction of duty.

So would you say that Dick O'Kane was derelict for operating as he himself described? He certainly makes it clear that he used his radar cautiously and, like any stealth platform, gave a high priority to limiting all emissions to preserve the advantage of surprise. Remember that O'Kane was awarded the CMH, 3 Navy Crosses, and 2 Silver Stars.

[Rockin Robbins]

You have to separate hindsight from the view in the jungle. O'Kane certainly used his radar during attacks and for making setups as the resulting accuracy was deemed a slam dunk. Hence his statement that amounted to "my radar is broke and now I won't sink diddly squat."

The only difference was that O'Kane valued visual searches because they were apparently much more effective than in the game with high periscope extending the horizon (not in the game) and much better visual acuity than we have in the game. Even Fluckey talks about visually observing airplanes in complete safety for several minutes before a decision to continue as is or to dive. We don't have a true balance in the game and have to be careful about our judgments.

So O'Kane, before he made contact, wanted complete anonymity and ignorance on the part of the enemy, even at the cost of information on his side. Enright and Fluckey seem to be more in favor of giving a little to get a lot. But you can understand that superstition, hunch and general paranoia where your life is at stake if you're wrong would tend to trump any dispassionate calculation of advantage and odds. And you also have to factor in that the difference between the captains we discuss and the losers finding no targets was due to the aggressiveness and tolerance for danger that these skippers were willing to tolerate, in contrast to those who lurked below the surface all day and then ran around at night with half charged batteries and not fully prepared to fight. These guys weren't afraid to intimidate the enemy. And they weren't afraid to be seen by an aircraft--that's why they spent so much time on the surface. They were very willing to trade a little danger for finding more targets. I'll bet O'Kane figured out how much of the time he could leave the radar off and still not miss any targets in his search area. These guys weren't the kind to hide to survive.

The important thing is that once the great skippers were in action they used the radar to its full advantage. And the action starts with first detection by the enemy, whether it be seeing a periscope, detecting a radar signal, or hearing a very loud BOOM.

But with hindsight it should be very clear to everyone that just leaving the radar on will sink more targets than any other strategy. They can't fix your position and train any weapons from your radar signal. But your radar makes your weapons more than twice as deadly. In real life, the use of radar and its detection by the Japanese did strike fear and cause mistakes on their part because of its potent intimidation factor. In war, you should be something of a bully. Fair play is for dead people.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

In real life, the use of radar and its detection by the Japanese did strike fear and cause mistakes on their part because of its potent intimidation factor. In war, you should be something of a bully. Fair play is for dead people.

I have reread both O'Kane and Fluckey and I can not find a single example of an attack where either of these very aggressive skippers intentionally used radar emissions to "spook" the enemy in the way that you describe. And you have to admit that Fluckey, had he done so, could be counted on to have mentioned the fact. Shinano-Archerfish was a serendipitous occurrence, not a deliberate tactic. It happened once, and the details weren't available until after the war. (BTW, if you have a first-person account of such intentional use in WW2 - by anyone - I'd really like to read it. Thanks.)

O'Kane, on the other hand, repeatedly stresses the importance, to him, of maintaining the advantage of stealth. His comments on the need for EMSEC (as it would now be called) are far more extensive than the few I quoted in my previous post. Concealment, stealth, invisibility (call it whatever you wish) is critical to the submarine's mission. If it were not, you could build a far more efficient surface torpedo platform. Stealth is both an offensive and a defensive advantage. As anyone who has ever played a sibsim knows, you can't hunt effectively while being hunted. Once you make the enemy aware of your presence, he has a whole arsenal of tools to prevent you from using your offensive weapons effectively. So, instead of making your presence known, so as to maybe cause the enemy to make a mistake, it is better (in O'Kane's judgment and FWIW, I agree) to keep him completely unaware of your presence until the moment of attack. An alert, combat-ready enemy may spook and make a mistake, or he may not, and, if he doesn't, he knows you are around and is actively trying to find and neutralize you. An enemy who doesn't think there is a hostile force anywhere nearby is less alert and not actively trying to locate and deal with you. This is the essence of stealth tactics, which are most definitely not purely defensive.

As for striking fear in the enemy, what is more fearsome than the sudden enormous explosion of a torpedo which strikes without warning when everyone on board is feeling safe and unaware of an enemy anywhere nearby? Or as O'Kane put it:

"Again, we had one objective: To make our presence known only by our torpedo detonations."

But with hindsight it should be very clear to everyone that just leaving the radar on will sink more targets than any other strategy.

Hindsight is something none of us can avoid. Trying to minimize the element of hindsight was Ducimus' rationale for creating the "alternative history" which is TMO. But that doesn't mean that we have to embrace the knowledge that hindsight gives us and play the game with an aggressiveness beyond that of the boldest RL skippers, just because we "know" the historical truth. There is a quote which I am fond of offering on this forum:

"Realism isn't about the settings. It's about how you play the game." - Rockin' Robbins

[merc4ulfate]

""I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come)"

Yeah this is me here sometimes.

1944. I just ran smack into a huge Task Force. Water depth is 600 feet. They had at least 11 destroyers, 4 battleships, 8 light and heavy cruisers and 8 aircraft carriers of varying classes. The escorts were more towards the rear and I let them have it from 3000 yards. I sank 4 out of the 8 carriers and two destroyers. In the whole 45 minute battle I fired all but 6 fish and only once dove to avoid being struck by a heavy cruiser to a depth of 110 feet then came back up to continue the attack.

1600 sun is shining and not a cloud in the sky. I was bombed by no less than 6 air craft who couldn't hit a thing. 35 minutes into the battle the TF began moving on out of my range and I had to dive to 520 feet to avoid the destroyers who had finally made it over to attack me. Sustained minor flooding and damage that was quickly repaired.

After they left the area I found a freighter and threw three cuties at him two hit but he left and I didnt feel like wasting the other 3 fish or a surface face off.

Headed to Saipan which had just fallen and on my way came across another huge Task Force. They were spread out for miles and there is no way knowing all of the ships. I was at periscope depth all ahead flank and was never heard by any of them they were so spread out. By the time I got into position and allowed one to come towards me I put one out of three fish into another carrier.

Docked at Saipan and very much enjoyed that patrol.

I think I made my presence known and had first spotted them with radar and kept the radar on until they were within 9 nm then I went to periscope depth.

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[BigWalleye]

Gosh! That sounds so...real!

[Rockin Robbins]

Those convoys fly by at 20 knots. Good job of getting in close enough to let 'em know we don't like 'em playing on OUR LAKE. The worst thing is seeing a convoy and knowing there's no way to get from here to there.