All members read this

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Dowly

And 2xfor the record, I dont do subtle digs, I say it straight....

OOO Yeah!!!!! No faulting you for that.

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I always like Steve's input. Few people are as well thought-out.

If we were all as old and wise
:rotfl:
J\K Steve

So, if we can agree on the following:

1. A seperate forum for ATO and PTO mods (we already have a U-boat addon players forum).

Necessary me thinks

2. Members can generally agree to stop refering to other mod teams en masse when having a dispute with an individual.

Would be a huge step forward

3. Mod groups can generally agree to stop retoring en masse when an individual is addressed.

If no 2 is adhered to this is another sensible suggestion

4. Members can agree on PM as the prefered method correspondence with disputes. Nothing heats up faster than a public retort.

Another usefull suggestion and already used by a couple of ppl ( PMs )

5. A strict and assertive enforcement of SubSim's editorial policy by the moderating team.

Agreed
Unbiased moderating is a must and needs to be stricter than currently is


....then perhaps we can start a new page here. Any other thoughts?

In yellow

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Lots more thoughts here, Takeda Shingen.

I've only gotten started and will be stating my and/or our point of view on a number of matters.

So many have hypocritically blamed GWX for all their ills, and I've held my responses for so long.

We deserve to be heard. We have been loyal to Subsim and if we've needed to earn the right to be heard and considered... we have done exactly that.

[Penelope_Grey]

Sailor Steve has the benefit a lot of us don't have. Age and experience. Not mention the patience of Job.

@Takeda.

I echo what Kpt. Lehmann said to you earlier re the hand shaking... and I think your 5 point plan looks fine to me. Would also personally speaking, not object to having you personally moderate a new ATO board.

What BBW wrote in yellow is also pretty much what is in my head as well.

[MONOLITH]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

To the Moderators:

We've given you every opportunity to be the police. .... removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

What's evident here, is that the "guests" here have been allowed to believe it is they who run the site, and even the moderators are supposed to answer to them.

It is so nice of you Lehmann, to "allow the opportunity" for the moderators to do their job. Very generous of you.

Then you declare they have no influence over you. I thought this was Subsim,com, not Lehmann.com


The problem here is not the moderators, it's certain members who have decided they run Subsim, and Neal has supported it.


So, you're relationship with Neal has granted you this ability, so be it, you win.

But the real pathetic truth in it all is clearly stated in your words.


You can yell and rant in your usual style and tell me to shut up now, but the real problems here have been revealed.

My sympathies to the moderators. You have an uphill climb and your feet have been chopped off.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.

@Everybody! So we're in agreement? Blame the moderators, forgive them, empower them and get back to work? :rotfl:

Somebody thank MONOLITH for coming to that conclusion, providing examples of how it works and then getting out of the way so the owner and moderators of this forum could make their choice. His is the real petition we should all endorse.

As moderator, I would have deleted MONOLITH's last post as unfair to Subsim and damaging to MONOLITH's own position and reputation.

@KL, if you re-read the thread in kickinbak where you quote the post by AVG I think you'll see the gist of his reasoning was that U-Boats were brand new to SH4 and that because they were new they were garnering the lion's share of attention and screenies right then. He was implying that fleet boat screenies didn't win because they weren't submitted. In a year, after the novelty wore off, the picture would be more balanced. AVG is involved in SH4 because he works on the USS Torsk and has no interest in U-Boats. That's not a bad thing, any more than for those Europeans who were not innoculated with fleet boat fever and only like U-Boats. I think if AVG were a moderator of the PTO forum he would be fair. I think if Penelope were moderator in the ATO forum (not suggesting or nominating here contrary to common sense and Subsim rules) she would be fair. Impartiality is overrated.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

AVG_Warhawk, never pretend to know what is on my mind.

What you don't see is I am hoping for the best. If you think I enjoy flame wars, or that somehow CONSTANT DERISION from so many boosts my ego, then you yourself have a closed mind.

I will tell you what is on my mind. I am angry and I am calm... I am a stubborn Texan who will not be overrun by those who insult and threaten.

You have stated numerous times how tired you are of all matters relating to moderating... and how tired you are of the flame wars.

You have demonstrated complete willingness to shut down ATO related threads without any effort to actually moderate issues.

You no longer give a damn and that in itself is reason enough for you to step down.

You are biased against ATO matters and this is proof... your own speech/thoughts:

Let see, I agreed with LukeFF. No problem there. "I wished more fleetboats were represented." Hmmmm, just my own observation and desire. "I guess Neal picked judges that are SH3 super fans". Probably true as SH3 has a much larger following then SH4. Known fact. "This will come around again next year." Sure will, maybe SH4 will have grown some more and there will be more representation of the fleetboats. Looks harmless to me. Read what you like into it. No problem. I read, eat, sleep and work on fleetboats. Sorry and to bad. I did not know it was such a travesty not to care for the ATO. Read all the books, played the game, watched all the movies. Time to move on to something else. This sounds much like life in motion to me.

Let see, you want us to moderate. OK, when you find you have 24 hours/7 days a week to go through every thread, please do. I do not have that kind of time. Please locate were I did not step in attempting to calm a thread. I'm sure you can find were I just locked it because most if not all ignore moderators. Please do not attempt to talk your way out of this one. EVERYONE ignores. Ok, sometimes things I read do not look offense or derogatory to me. However, they do to others. USE THE FECKING REPORT BAD POST BUTTON! ALL MODERATORS GET AN EMAIL ABOUT IT. Is that really to hard to ask? Shutting down the thread is the measure I take because IGNORE is used and everyone continues on their way. So, it has been suggested that moderators have use of the ban button. Penelope is aghast, jimbuna is aghast with emoticons to prove it. How dare anyone but Neal have that option? Meanwhile the moderator sits with his thumb up his a$$ being able to do nothing but close the thread after attempts to stop it are made. No matter, the posters will start a new one in a few moments. On it goes.

You tell me what you would do? I'm interested in hearing it.

Thanks for your observations on not giving a damn at the moment. I spent the better part of the day (4th) watching this thread to find resolution while you were off doing something. Seemingly it looks like you do not give a damn and showing up to help sort it out will be done at your leisure. Very nice. Ok, perhaps a family plan for the 4th. Hope it was enjoyable. Fortunate for me I scheduled mine for the 6th. Therefore I gave a damn and spent my time here. Asking and answering questions.


As per usual, KL, stop telling people what to do. You did so before and I responded and your doing it now. I will step down when I'm damn good and ready.

[JREX53]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

Kpt. Lehmann,

I agree with you whole heartedly, there just isn't enough time in the day for me to do everything I want to, but unfortunately we can't change the fact that there is only 24 hours in a day.

I also understand that because you have limited manpower you can only do so much, but wouldn't it make more sense if you and the modders that ask you for help were to make in the open forum instead of PM's. Wouldn't it save you and your team from having to tell someone, 3, 6 months, or longer the same thing that you have done in the past. To me, if the help was made on the open forum, then it would benefit the modders of the future on how and why some of the files are changed to create the desired mod. Thus, you would not have to repeat the cycle every time someone needed some help and you and your team would have more time to mod the AO to your standards.

This would result in a larger knowledge base that benefits every modder and non-modder in the community. Just my 2 cents.

[bigboywooly]

[quote=Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

quote]

To be fair skwasjr isnt part of a major mod team but has spent a loooong time building his excellant tool
And provided no end of support

Something you cannot do when trying to build a mod too

Everybody has real life too
Time IS limited and not a finite resource

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

Where do we get the time? In between our actual 9 to 5 jobs? (Cept me... Im unemployed now lol) In between user support on SH3? In between full time development and testing? There are a great many demands on GW resources. I seriously doubt you full appreciate RR the sheer scale of the work that Grey Wolves undertakes... which is why what you ask, cannot be done... if it could be. It would be done.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.

Black Holes suck everything in and give nothing out... at the end of development Grey Wolves hands out a mod package most people can use and enjoy. Working off on our own is just the way we like to do things... free of distractions and sidetracks.

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by JREX53

Kpt. Lehmann,

I agree with you whole heartedly, there just isn't enough time in the day for me to do everything I want to, but unfortunately we can't change the fact that there is only 24 hours in a day.

I also understand that because you have limited manpower you can only do so much, but wouldn't it make more sense if you and the modders that ask you for help were to make in the open forum instead of PM's. Wouldn't it save you and your team from having to tell someone, 3, 6 months, or longer the same thing that you have done in the past. To me, if the help was made on the open forum, then it would benefit the modders of the future on how and why some of the files are changed to create the desired mod. Thus, you would not have to repeat the cycle every time someone needed some help and you and your team would have more time to mod the AO to your standards.

This would result in a larger knowledge base that benefits every modder and non-modder in the community. Just my 2 cents.

To a certain extent yes
We do not have the manpower to police a large open forum
Nor the finances to provide a large open forum

The search function IS there for all to use as the majority of things are well publicised and out there already

Trouble is ppl do not use it but to easily start a new thread

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.

The police failed? How about other respected members on this forum as failing to ignore the baiting? Both sides. How many times have I asked you and jimbuna to be stand up guys. 99% of the time you two are as most of the GWX crew are. The other 1% is when you are not. Unfortunte this 1% gets the focus. So please do not lay this all on the moderators and this a$$hole of impartial moderator lap. Legitimate complaints should come in PM or bad post button. This tool is open for all. You, the crew and SH4 modders are partial to blame. We as moderators are left to deal with it and apparently the root cause in your eyes. Nice set of rose colored glasses.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by MONOLITH

What's evident here, is that the "guests" here have been allowed to believe it is they who run the site, and even the moderators are supposed to answer to them.

It is so nice of you Lehmann, to "allow the opportunity" for the moderators to do their job. Very generous of you.

Then you declare they have no influence over you. I thought this was Subsim,com, not Lehmann.com


The problem here is not the moderators, it's certain members who have decided they run Subsim, and Neal has supported it.


So, you're relationship with Neal has granted you this ability, so be it, you win.

But the real pathetic truth in it all is clearly stated in your words.


You can yell and rant in your usual style and tell me to shut up now, but the real problems here have been revealed.

My sympathies to the moderators. You have an uphill climb and your feet have been chopped off.

TBH, I remember multiple cases of either Neal or some of the moderators telling us/me/GWX team to "not feed the trolls, use the report button". And I have used it quite a few times and so has many many others. Seeing as it only has resulted in locking of the said thread without any punishment for the one who started it makes me personally mad. What good is the report button then? I've said this in other threads lately, just simply locking the thread wont fix the problem (But that's why we all are here now, right? ).

Moderators, I am glad to see that you are taking more heavier tools to use to put a stop to the fighting, but my suggestion would be a more severe punishment than a 24hr ban, a week minimum would IN MY OPINION be right. 24hrs is a short time and propably wont do any good for the person that is banned.

I can talk of an own experience. The last 30 day ban I got, I was REALLY angry for 3-4 days after it (mostly because the counterpart who IMHO started the whole thing, got only a 3 day ban, but that is irrelevant.), but a week/1½ weeks later I started to feel really ashamed of what I did and I can say (and I hope) that my behaviour here at SS has improved alot after the ban. I'm not jumping in on every fight I see just for the heck of it, I post if I have something to say, be it my opinion or a correction for someone's post.

But, like I said to Neal in one of my PM's I am certainly in no position to start to teach you how to do your job as moderators, this' just how I see it.

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Hi Digital Trucker,

The other day you posed a question asking why a modder would want to keep a modding tool to themselves... and seemed to feel as if keeping such a tool under guard was a selfish thing....

You asked for one reason why retaining limited access to such a tool should be viewed as acceptable.

I will answer your question with our primary reason:

We have limited manpower, and though we assist modders DIRECTLY via PM on many occasions, with the huge distribution of the GWX mod and its massive user support mechanism... We have chosen to mod for the user. We can either produce mods or teach people how to mod (and deal continuously with mass-confusion).... but we simply don't have the manpower to do both.

At any rate, we'd get roasted either way.

I know this was not directed to me, but I'll like to comment that part in fat font.
Some modders, also among those some GWX modders, actually manages to help out both newbies and other modders achieving their own goals for gameplay, and isn't exactly that what a community is all about?
We all like our different way of gameplay, no matter if it's ATO or PTO.
I know you like one big package, which suits your game style. And though you may not have the manpower, you could give it an effort and still try and teach. Numerous members of your group do it more or less. You would do yourself a huge service to give it a try. It would might help on your reputation.
So what if not everybody understands the basic of your teaching in this or that tool? If just a handfull or two do, then new modders may be born.

KL, you know you and I have disagreed about issues many times, and we'll probably disagree again, but please read my message twice. It's meant in best intent for the better for all of us at subsim.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

There is the central point to your organizational construction. However, I submit to you that skwasjr and others have shown that it possible for a single modder to do some of both. Why not for a mighty team such as GW?

I don't think you have to conduct kindergarten classes, but I don't think you have to be a black hole either.

@Everybody! So we're in agreement? Blame the moderators, forgive them, empower them and get back to work? :rotfl:

Somebody thank MONOLITH for coming to that conclusion, providing examples of how it works and then getting out of the way so the owner and moderators of this forum could make their choice. His is the real petition we should all endorse.

Monolith has been a long-time instigator of anti-GWX sentiment and trolling. Though his comments are on occasion irritating... they are obviously driven by hate, so we largely discount anything he has to say.

Concerning Rockin Robbin's opportunistic thrusting and retreating... Meh. His attitude speaks for itself concerning GWX matters.

His words, (and indication of his attitude towards GWX) describing the logical progression of the Subsim.com news page and the related position of a GWX release announcement there as subsequent articles marched it down the page: