German court bans circumcision

[Skybird]

A board member who has choosen not to join the thread nevertheless has sent me this, from 1997.

http://www.menweb.org/svocirc.htm

And some German media reported today and yesterday that there is already a trend observed that in the shadow of the parliament'S attempted crash-course-legalising of boys' circumcision, growing efforts are being run from accoprding lobby groups up to the level of the WHO and the UNHRC to legalise female circumcision in full, too. That is bad news. In Germany, some media pointed out that there is concern over the dignity of girls being violated when being subjected to the procedure. It gets asked if boys have no such dignity thta must be protected, then.

Well. That questions stands.

As I said somewhere above, some Catholic private schools in Britain just have forbidden their female students to get injections against cervical cancer.

He just can't stop himself from making up rubbish.

The schools cannot forbid anything of the sort.

The 24 various schools in question out of the thousands out there can regualte to a certain extent what they do in their property on their time.

Since this injection is not compulsory then what is it?
Something parents can decide on for their children
Damn parents making decisions for kids its all wrong I tell ya

Isn't it funny that one of Skybirds regular "oh no its the muslims" newspapers happens to be frequently running a scare campaign against administering this very same vaccination.

Could it be that the Daily Mail says to parents that these cancer vaccinations give your children cancer?

So I have written your post #181. Hear, hear.

No young man, you wrote post#1.
Hear hear, you introduced an arguement you are now describing as idiotic

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So I have written your post #181. Hear, hear.

Takeda, you set up a strawman argument over earlobe piercing and dressed it into two questions all by yourself, that you set up to give the impression as if their content - earlobe piercing - would in any way be comparable to gential mutilation.

Both do not compare. Not in severity. Not in pain. Not in medical complications possible. Not in rate by which medical complications appear. Not in effects of living quality and the way it gets effected.

And I dare say that most girls ask their parents for permission to get a needle-hole in their earlobe to wear some gem or whatever it is. I scanned the web via google a bit after your statement you knew many parents making the decision to needle their little girls in the earlobe. In the German web, I found little evidence that this is the common way. Most testimonies reported that instead the girls kill their parents' nerves untoil these allow it.

The responsiblity for that hilarious construction you set up as if the two issues compared where comparable at all - this responsibility we leave where it belongs - with you.

Needle your earlobe. Cut off your forsekin with a knife , and frenulum and all that. Then report back and tell us about your experiences. I am certain you will not deal the one for the other anymore. Absolutely certain.

Come back to your senses.

It must be exhausting being this angry all the time. I will pray for you. Christ be with you.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Then you never have heared of the Catholic church, and have not read the Bible - both old and new testament.

The catholic church is not a non-fundamentalist Protestant denomination.

The Bible, yeah I glanced through it once.

Originally Posted by Skybird

You said that before in an early thread, and it ended ugly. I take you by what you express in opinions, not by what you claim you want to be understood as. And I see you not as that harmless secular guy you want me to believe. Niot the ultra-.hardcore fundamentlaist, but still: fundamentalism is on oyur list, without you being aware of it.

Your powers of discernment are remarkable given the distance and your knowledge about me. I will repeat once more. I am a Christian. I am not a fundamentalist. The two are not mutually inclusive. Neither am I this 'harmless secular guy', whatever that is. I am beginning to doubt your knowledge and insight on this subject.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Really? Regarding what has been discussed between you and me, aren't things not already clear? We are very different, you and me.

We are very different and some things are very clear. So?

Does every one you know agree with every thing you say or do you browbeat them into submission? I make an attempt at some sort of conciliation and you seem to reject it. Are you rejecting it?

For my part I can't help it. That book I glanced at says "to be at peace with all men, if at all possible."

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by u crank

Does every one you know agree with every thing you say or do you browbeat them into submission? I make an attempt at some sort of conciliation and you seem to reject it. Are you rejecting it?

It's what he does. I just finished standing up for Skybird because I thought the opposition in that case was unwarranted. Now I will take the other stance. I have had him dump on me, not because I disagreed but because I didn't agree with him the way he thought I should.

This is his bad habit.

[kranz]

seems like sheep are leaving Skybird's Congregation.
(dunno why, but I have these rats squeals and an image of a sinking ship in my head...)
Long time ago, someone wise on this board said that "he didn't come here to discuss but to preach." (forgot who said that but he should have been awarded with POTY)

anyways...I know it will sound perverted but actually this is one of two arguments (among all he has posted) with which I agree. (I need to give myself 20 lashes for that...)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It's what he does. I just finished standing up for Skybird because I thought the opposition in that case was unwarranted. Now I will take the other stance. I have had him dump on me, not because I disagreed but because I didn't agree with him the way he thought I should.

This is his bad habit.

The total freedom thing? Well, Steve, you simply did not see that certain inner contradiction in your thinking, and were angry that I put the finger into that wound.

I do not chnage mind or alter my opinion just to do somebody favours. I also do not respect a different opinion for the mere sake of respecting a different opinion. Opinions are not respectable in themselves - the reasons behind them are what makes them respectable, or not. I respect a different opinion if the other can explain reasonably, not just by making random and arbitrary speculations, why he comes to his differing conclusions. An opinion itself means little to me, at worst it is an annoyance reality greets me with - as a realist I take note of its exitence, and that'S it. Wheter or not people can explain their opinion without entangling themselves in illogical contradictions or flawed information - that is what it was about. u_crank claims to be this thing, while by what I take from his other comments indicates he his quite something different. Many people do not want to be labelled as what they seem to behave at, or do not want to be held responsible for the consequences of the positions they take. And you did ignore certain self-destructive implications of your position back then, when you and me collided. You were not able to resolve it until the very end of the story. Well.

I was not convinced by you two. If that equals that I "dumped on you", either you or u_crank: I have occasionally changed my mind in the past, and I said that in forum posts, and sometimes it was due to something said in this forum, sometimes it was due to "life" and may have taken a bit longer than just from one day to the next. I also sometimes went wrong, or attacked in unacceptable ways. I repeatedly admitted to that then, and were due I apologised then. But that was when I was forced to see my wrong, or was convinced of new input forcing me to change my former views, or I realised all by myself that I behaved bad.

But do not expect me to just do favours, opinion- or apology-wise.

And while the obvious rethoric counterstrike is inviting after the above sentence: don't . Just don't. Just leave it in the context I said it in.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

http://www.menweb.org/svocirc.htm

It is worth remembering that the two developed countries in which circumcision is most widely practiced, Israel and the United States, have what many consider to be two of the most violent governments in the world. On a criminal level, we are probably the most violent developed country. Research has suggested that these facts are connected and not simple coincidence

What...you people losing it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It must be exhausting being this angry all the time. I will pray for you. Christ be with you.

Can't you just ask people before you get going? Now I feel as if getting served and charged for something that I did not order.

[MH]

@skybird..seriously the more you are challenged on some issues the more you seem to sink into insanity.
Lake onion that reveals layer after layer lol.

The total freedom thing? Well, Steve, you simply did not see that certain inner contradiction in your thinking, and were angry that I put the finger into that wound.

Is that the one where Steve said Skys dogma and unthinkling insistance that he was right meant he was just a big a threat to freedom as the nutty fundy muslims he was complaining about.

@skybird..seriously the more you are challenged on some issues the more you seem to sink into insanity.

I disagree, on some issues he managess to leave his insanity behind altogether.

But hey he is topping it all off now......

Wheter or not people can explain their opinion without entangling themselves in illogical contradictions or flawed information - that is what it was about.

How much flawed information and illogical contradictions does the average Skybird post contain in each paragraph?
By what proportion does that increase if it involves religion?
By what massive factor does it further increase if it involves his favorite religion?

But do not expect me to just do favours, opinion- or apology-wise.

The only person you need to do a favour to is yourself.
You seriously do need to do yourself a favour.

[u crank]

It is worth remembering that the two developed countries in which circumcision is most widely practiced, Israel and the United States, have what many consider to be two of the most violent governments in the world. On a criminal level, we are probably the most violent developed country. Research has suggested that these facts are connected and not simple coincidence. Psychobiological studies support this theory.

Yeah. I stopped reading when I got to that part.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I do not chnage mind or alter my opinion just to do somebody favours. I also do not respect a different opinion for the mere sake of respecting a different opinion. Opinions are not respectable in themselves - the reasons behind them are what makes them respectable, or not. I respect a different opinion if the other can explain reasonably, not just by making random and arbitrary speculations, why he comes to his differing conclusions. An opinion itself means little to me, at worst it is an annoyance reality greets me with - as a realist I take note of its exitence, and that'S it. Wheter or not people can explain their opinion without entangling themselves in illogical contradictions or flawed information - that is what it was about.

Entering any debate or discussion with this mindset puts you at an extreme disadvantage. Not only do you lose the respect of those you debate with, but you shut yourself off from any possible new ideas. The fact that you don't respect other's opinions because they cannot be explained to 'your' satisfaction must mean that you would expect the same treatment. What is the point then? It now changes from debate to 'dogmatic preaching. It's just useless shouting. Perhaps this is what you prefer?

Originally Posted by Skybird

u_crank claims to be this thing, while by what I take from his other comments indicates he his quite something different. Many people do not want to be labelled as what they seem to behave at, or do not want to be held responsible for the consequences of the positions they take. And you did ignore certain self-destructive implications of your position back then, when you and me collided. You were not able to resolve it until the very end of the story. Well.

A further explanation will be necessary, although I don't really require it. Your past attempts to tell me what I believe or what I represent have been entertaining, but unfortunately incorrect. Other than stating a simple fact.."I am a Christian', I have said little. You are attempting to put me in a box that suits your view points. I refuse to get in it.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I was not convinced by you two.

But do not expect me to just do favours, opinion- or apology-wise.

I am not trying to convince you about any thing. I am not expecting any favours either.

What I am hoping for is friendly, respectful and meaningful debate. Is that possible?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The total freedom thing? Well, Steve, you simply did not see that certain inner contradiction in your thinking, and were angry that I put the finger into that wound.

And you start it all over again. When I tried to explain that my position was not absolute, but simply a starting point for discussion, you attacked me for being absolute. When I tried to explain that I agreed with you in certain points, you ignored that and continued to attack the position you decided I held. You didn't even listen to me when I tried to have a discussion - you attacked the position you insisted I held even when I tried to explain that my position wasn't what you thought it was. You didn't even listen to me, or argue with me. You attacked one thing I said long ago. There was no discussion on your part, just attack and dismissal.

I do not chnage mind or alter my opinion just to do somebody favours. I also do not respect a different opinion for the mere sake of respecting a different opinion.

The problem isn't differing opinions. You insist that your opinion is fact, and you dismiss anything else as flat wrong. You treat everyone else as your inferior, and you talk down to them, as if lecturing a first-year student. You consider yourself "right", and leave no room for anything else.

You are arrogant, pure and simple. Even your fellow Germans think you're a joke.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Can't you just ask people before you get going? Now I feel as if getting served and charged for something that I did not order.

May you walk in the path of almighty God.