The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[Aramike]

Lotsa good posts.

VipertheSniper:

So, if it's financially inconvenient for the man, what is he gonna do? Force her to abort if she wants to keep the baby? And if she doesn't want to carry the child to term, force her to keep it? HUH??? I'd say the decision is entirely up to her.

The legal side of this whole thing might well be relevant to men, but not the physical act, whether it is carried out or not.

I cannot in my right mind differentiate the legal side from the physical side.

Case in point, imagine your father has cancer. Does that cancer only affect him even though the treatments only physiologically affect him?

Max:

I can't really ask myself that question because I don't believe abortion is morally wrong. I just don't like it. I also don't like cosmetic surgery, but I don't think it is morally wrong, and I certainly don't think it should be illegal.

Okay, fair enough - but please validate your reasons for not liking something that you do not believe is morally wrong? I mean, I understand that some people just don't like, say, cake, but a matter of life and death is not a dessert.

But I agree with you on the larger point. I think setting a certain stage of fetal development as the cutoff is a good idea. The heartbeat is a good possibility, the first brain activity is another. I have to confess that I don't know which comes first.

I do give you a lot of credit, Max, as you haven't tried to make the issue one of absolutes. And it is reasurring that you and I, who may be opposed to the morality of the entire issue of abortion, can find a middle ground. In fact, I suspect that we both share the same morality on the issue once a certain stage of development is attained.

But, regardless, I applaud you for not simply seeing the issue as black and white and attempting to find a way to compromise.

August:

Seems to me that there is a lot more to fatherhood than just a "legal side" but be that as it may i'd think that even the legal responsibilities alone are enough to justify a man having some say in this issue.

How about the woman makes the decision but if the man disagrees with it before the fact it absolves him of the legal or financial responsibility? That's fair ain't it?

You understood my point precisely, as usual. Also, you articulated it more clearly than I, as usual. Kudos!

Viper:

Maybe I should've written a longer reply explaining my view better.

You say there's a lot more to fatherhood than just a legal side and I agree with that, but when is an abortion considered mostly? I'd hazard a guess that it's not in situations where a couple is considering to get married because of the pregnancy, is about to get married anyway, or is married (apart from diagnosed birth defects or a child concieved in a rape). And in all those other situation which I didn't mention I think it should be entirely up to the woman to decide if she keeps the baby or not.

That's a pretty biased (and sexist) assumption to base a law upon...

In any case, under your idea of making woman the sole decision-maker when it comes to bringing children into the world, please justify the concept of child support.

For example, let's say a child is the result of an one-night stand. If the woman has the complete decision upon whether or not to bring that pregnancy to term, how can you justify the man being accountable for ANY of the responsibility of that decision?

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Viper:That's a pretty biased (and sexist) assumption to base a law upon...

I certainly wouldn't base a law on that, but I'm talking about situations where a mother is probably left alone with the decision. If both parents have an interest in the child I think they should of course both be part of the decision, whatever that decision may be.

In any case, under your idea of making woman the sole decision-maker when it comes to bringing children into the world, please justify the concept of child support.

For example, let's say a child is the result of an one-night stand. If the woman has the complete decision upon whether or not to bring that pregnancy to term, how can you justify the man being accountable for ANY of the responsibility of that decision?

I'm not sure if I understand you right, do you mean that leaving the decision to abort or not to the woman is somehow making a man not responsible for his choice to not use contraceptives (I know there are no 100% safe contraceptives)?

If the woman conceived despite him using a condom, or other contraceptive measures, I indeed cannot justify the concept of child support, and I thought long about it, and I don't like that at all. So thanks for opening my eyes.

[Platapus]

=SteamWake;1139091
Are all doctors just money hungry evil people?

Doctors are human and as such are a representation of humanity. There are good doctors, bad doctors, Doctors interested in helping people, doctors interested in money. You can't lump *all* doctors in to one classification, just like you can't lump all people into one classification.

It is, however, important to recognize that a growing number of doctors are becoming involved in elective practices (plastic surgery, cosmetic treatments, etc). These are not, usually, medically necessary, but are elective.

The Frau, had to visit a cosmetic surgeon after her facial surgery. You should have seen the sales job this "doctor" laid on her.

He was pushing (pretty hard) surgeries that had nothing to do with her facial surgery. "Don't worry, we will find a way to get the insurance company to pay for it!" Uh Doc, what does cosmetic breast surgery have to do with her facial surgery?????? I would be very interested in how you are going to justify a tummy tuck (unnecessary in my opinion) to the insurance company?

Well of course in the fine print it says that if the insurance company does not pay, we do. Funny he did not mention that during the sales pitch.

His attitude had little to do with The Frau's health but more to do with manipulating an older woman to elect surgery she did not need. It was all about the money.

So there are some doctors who are out for the money.

My opinion: Once a doctor moves into trying to sell elective techniques, they lose their professional ethic. That is not the way doctors are supposed to act, in my opinion.

How can I trust this type of doctors? Do I really need this technique or is he/she just trying to sell me stuff for more profit?

I should not even have to think about this... but I do.

Even my frickin dentist is trying to sell me stuff!!!!!! Every doctor seems to be trying to max out the profit.

I am not looking forward to my next proctologist visit thats for sure.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Platapus

#1: Never tell anyone everything you know

Originally Posted by Platapus

Every doctor seems to be trying to max out the profit.

I am not looking forward to my next proctologist visit thats for sure.

Now I gotta deal with this picture in my head all day ...

Oh not the one of you going ... the one of my needing to go

From the looks of things Mr. Obama gave it a shot in his presser. But the only thing anyone remembers is his other moment. From all indications this isn't going to pass. After all the US health care system isn't really broken. Very few leave the US for health care, more people come here for the health care not provided by their own countries.

[Zachstar]

Obama just screwed up politically. And I am not dem enough to deny that. By doing what he did with the gates situation he opened a giant hole for health care reform opposition freaks to flood the airwaves with things distracting the issue. And then of course the completely bought and paid for Reid used it to declare it no vote until fall.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Obama just screwed up politically. And I am not dem enough to deny that. By doing what he did with the gates situation he opened a giant hole for health care reform opposition freaks to flood the airwaves with things distracting the issue. And then of course the completely bought and paid for Reid used it to declare it no vote until fall.

Actually Reid declared the no vote the morning before the conference.

Please dont get side tracked by this Gates thing. Its not that important. Its just a diversion and at worst a reflection of the current adminstrations outlook towards racial issues.

What is important is that now Ms Pelosi and her minions are trying to find a way to bypass the blue dogs and force a vote on the healthcare bill even if they have to stay through the recess.

Furthermore Obama has stated that even if it isnt voted up that it would be pressed through by some other method.

The dems are scared to death that if they do not vote on this untill the fall more and more pepole will see the ugly facts and the unsustainablity of the current bill and popular opinion will be even more negative than it is now.

Pro or Con a measure of this magnatitude should be considered carefully and not rushed to judgement.

I don't think we need healthcare reform. Healthcare is working. We need catostrophic insurance reform. That is what scares everyone. The sudden illness/accident which devastates peoples income and savings.

The numbers I have heard are far less than 1 trilloin dollars. 39-40 billion dollars.

[SteamWake]

Just going after and stopping fraud would save millions. That would be a good place to start.

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Just going after and stopping fraud would save millions. That would be a good place to start.

The unfortnate part is the many multiples of millions/billions which will be available for fraud under a government plan. You hear about it all the time, government contracts, which is what this would be, used in fraud.

bad news

Obama rushes to quell racial uproar he helped fire
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_harvard_scholar

[Platapus]

Ron Paul made an interesting comment. He recommended that the United States reduce some of the foreign aid and use that money for the various programs that help Americans.

Originally Posted by Platapus

Ron Paul made an interesting comment. He recommended that the United States reduce some of the foreign aid and use that money for the various programs that help Americans.

I'd be interested in hearing what Mr. Paul has to say. Can you post a link to any specifics Platapus?

[Platapus]

I remember it being on Cnn.com but I can't seem to find it in the archive

[donut]

Subject: Wain Reily - Are you concerned enough to read parts of the Obama Socialist Health Care Bill?



YES, I LIVE IN MISSISSIPPI AND I CAN READ... SO DO NOT IGNORE ME OR UNDER ESTIMATE ME!

I FOR ONE AM MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE ANYMORE OF IGNORANT PEOPLE TELLING ME WHAT TO DO WHEN I KNOW FULL WELL THEY ARE CREATING AN OUT OF CONTROL MONSTER THAT THEY CAN NOT CONTROL, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT READ THE BILL AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE BILL!

AS YOU CAN SEE I HAVE E-MAILED THIS TO EVERY ONE FROM BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA II ON DOWN... I WILL GET TO THE REST OF THEM LATER AND I HOPE YOU WILL DO THE SAME!

From: Wain Reily <Here I us an e-mail address I have set up for e-mailing government people only>

To: Paul Gallo <pgallo@telesouth.com>,
"Pres. Barack Hussein Obama II (Dem.)" <info@messages.whitehouse.gov>,
"Rep. D. Stephen Holland (Dem.)" <jcompretta@house.ms.gov>,
"Rep. Gary Chism (Rep.)" <gchism@house.ms.gov>,
"Rep. John Mayo (Dem.)" <jmayo@house.ms.gov>,
"Rep. John W. Hines, Sr. (Dem.)" <jhines@house.ms.gov>,
"Rep. Mac Huddleston (Rep.)" <mhuddleston@house.ms.gov>,
"Rep. Willie Bailey (Dem.)" <wbailey@house.ms.gov>,
"Rep.Greg Ward (Dem.)" <gward@house.ms.gov>,
Roger Larsen <columbuspacket@cableone.net>,
"Sen. John McCain (Rep.)" <john@countryfirstpac.com>,
"Senator Bob M. Dearing (Dem.)" <bdearing@senate.ms.gov>,
"Senator Sidney Albritton (Rep.)" <salbritton@senate.ms.gov>,
"Senator Terry Brown (Rep.)" <tbrown@senate.ms.gov>,
"Senator Terry C. Burton (Rep.)" <tburton@senate.ms.gov>,
"Senator Videt Carmichael (Rep.)" <vcarmichael@senate.ms.gov>,
"U. S. Rep. Travis Childers (Dem.) Mississippi" <ms01ima@mail.house.gov>,
"U. S. Sen. John McCain (Rep.) Arizona" <john@johnmccain.com>

Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:01 AM

Subject: Wain Reily - Are you concerned enough to read parts of the Obama Socialist Health Care Bill?

O. W. (Wain) Reily, III - Columbus, Mississippi




(You may forward anything that I send to you!)

"GOD BLESS AMERICA" for "IN GOD WE TRUST"




I Love this country...
It is the government that concerns me!

#yiv903817019 .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P{padding:0px;}#yiv903817019 .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Scroll down.

Specifics in the proposed Health Care Bill. Now you can read what Nancy Pelosi does not want you to see and why Barack Hussein Obama wants to rush the bill quickly through to passage.

It reads like a Communist Dictatorship!

And IF passed, that's exactly what we will be a Communist State!




I have been reading the 1000+ page house bill and I am e-mailing you my findings.

Read the last paragraph and YOU decide.



**************************************************





Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL


EMPLOYERS that self insure!!





Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that


decides what treatments and benefits you get





Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!





Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your


HC benefits for you. You have no choice!





Pg 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US


citizens, illegal or otherwise





Pg 58 HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access to individuals'


finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!





Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your


banks' accounts for election funds transfer





Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their


families in unions & community orgs (ACORN).





Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating a HC Exchange to bring private HC


plans under Govt control.





Pg 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs for private


HC plans in the Exchange





Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt


will ration your Healthcare!





Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic-appropriate


services. Example: Translation for illegal aliens





Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups (i.e., ACORN &


Americorps) to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan





Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels for Plans. #AARP members


- your health care will be rationed.





PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid-eligible individuals will be


automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.





Pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No


“judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.





Pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU


what you can make.





Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST automatically enroll employees


into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE





Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for health care for part-time


employees AND their families.





Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY employer with a payroll of $400k and above


who does not provide pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll





Pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between $251k & 400k who


don't provide pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll





Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC


according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income





Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from


individual taxes. (Americans will pay)





Pg 195 HC Bill - Officers and employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will


have access to ALL Americans' financial and personal records.





Pg 203 Line 14-15 HC - “The tax imposed under this section shall


not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that.





Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for


Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected





Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors will all be paid the same,


regardless of what specialty you have.





Pg 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of doctor's time, professional


judgment, etc. Literally value of humans.





Pg 265 Sec 1131 Govt mandates and controls productivity for private


HC industries





Pg 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental and purchase of power


driven wheelchairs





Pg 272 SEC. 1145. Treatment of certain cancer hospitals. Cancer


patients: welcome to rationing!





Pg 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what it


deems preventable re admissions.





Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors who treat a patient during initial


admission that results in a readmission will be penalized by the Govt.





Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells


doctors what/how much they can own.





Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is


mandating hospitals cannot expand





Pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT


community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!





Pg 335 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome-


based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing





Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv


Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps into Govt plan





Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs


people.! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!





Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory


Committee. Can you say HC by phone?





Pg 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult.


Think Senior Citizens end of life





Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct and consult regarding living


wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!





Pg 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of


end of life resources, guiding you in death. Excuse me???!?!?!?





Pg 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of


life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends





Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “advance care planning consult” will be used


frequently as patients health deteriorates





Pg 429 Lines 10-12 “Advance care consultation” may include an


ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV





Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write


an end of life order.





Pg 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you


will have at end of life





Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs.


Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?




Pg 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. One monthly


payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?





Pg 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy.


Which means they will insert Govt into your marriage





Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Services including


defining, creating, rationing those same services

As I said there are over 1000 pages in this Bill. If I can read it so can the law makers.
Notice I did not say your law maker, because most of us have a renegade running
brainless in the halls of Congress... not representing us.

Wain Reily

Sounds; socialized dictatorship