CHESS: Subsim team versus Letum

[Skybird]

Well, white's queen is boxed in,

Yes, and her only field she can move is under covered thread from c8.



and his next move will will probably be bg5xf4

he can't take his own knight.



His pawns give him a powerful defensive advantage,

No, not really. If anything, than they eventually will be a factor for pushing an attack and advance a pawn towards transformation.



but black has the advantage in mobility and redployment

Much of which you have given away earlier, and regained it only becasue white played sub-optimal.



with his side being less cluttered,

Calling the absence of a flank defense "less cluttered" must be the euphemism of th month!



and white is less one knight.

That equals just the three pawns he leads by. do not underestimate pawns just becasue they are pawns. They are the skeleton of the position.



However, the black knights are in a precarious position that has only been maintained by sacrificing pawns, which we are fresh out of at the moment.

You somewhat exchanged material for time and space. they are not really lost, you just lend them, and will get material compensation for them as well. Then the time and space advantage should stand out and really make a difference. Although you were low on material in the past moves, your psotion was to be preferred, and you had better chances.



As you said, the king is exposed, and I don't quite know what to think of that.

That's not good because it should make you think indeed.



If white does use bg5xe4 as his next move,

that is not possible a move.



black might respond with Rh8-g8, since I do expect white to move that f2 pawn soon. Rh8-g8 will at least keep the white queen in that corner once Black withdraws his g4 knight to f6.

Why should he want to? Rg8 leaves the Rook uncovered, so even when the g-line opens up, the white queen wil simply take him with check. White f3 leaves him with the problem that place gets crowded, then, only the field e2 is free for both the white bishop f1 and knight g1 to develope, which leaves one of them blocking the other. so do not be so sure about f3. yoiu mentioned your next move Bg5:, and that is the focus of action you now should focus on. Keep track of the precise variations.



btw, sky, you really threw me off by mentioning the king. I'm sure you were talking about castling, but when?..........

there is an alternative. The king can castel to both sides.



Ok that's as far as I got before I saw something . I'm almost afraid to ask but, be7xg5?

See above.



It seems like white would have move his knight to h3 or h5 after my queen ends up on g5, probably h3........

Focus on the exchange of g5, and the centre. If you want to prevent an enemy foiring a mortar at you - keep him running so that he can't set it up. Make him react to you, not the other way around. Be agressive, but not easy-minded.

Don't forget your king. As longs as Rooks and Queens are left in game, a centred king without defense is at risk.



If I think about it too much, I just make errors or get lost.

thinking too much? currently you miss to many things, so think more!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Clarification: The plain text in the above post assumes that black's 11. is e5xf4.
That was the subject under discussion when I started writing it, no?

Then I switched to bold text. I did say "That was as far as I got before I saw something"
My fault for not making it clearer. All the bold text refers to black 11. being be7xg5.

I was trying to show my thought process.

So, with that cleared up, what do you think?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

So, with that cleared up, what do you think?

Same as before.

[UnderseaLcpl]

white 11. nd5xf4
black 11. be7xg5

Official move, if there are no objections.

[Letum]

Ph4xg5

[Skybird]

Now the next move should be obvious, Lance.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Now the next move should be obvious, Lance.

Qd8-f6?

[porphy]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

white 11. nd5xf4
black 11. be7xg5

Official move, if there are no objections.

I don't object, but I would have chosen 11. ..., exf4. Why? It would keep up the pressure on the queen. If white plays right now, after blacks be7xg5, it looks to me that the white queen is going to end up at h4 which isn't to bad for white. That gives chances for potential forceful counter play along the h-file.
Still, I have to admit that all the different tactical options are a bit hard to judge correct.

If black would have played 11. ..., exf4 something like this could have happened. (excuse my short visit to the land of if.)This also shows the theme of why white playing pawn to f3 isn't always a big worry, as UnderseaLcpl often seems to think when looking at the seemingly stranded knight at g4.

11. ..., exf4
12. Bxf4, Bd6
13. Bxd6, cxd6
14. f3, Ne3+
15. Ke1, Nexc2+
16. Kf2, Qb6
17. Qg7, Nf5+
18. Ke2, Qe3+
and black forces mate in a few more moves.

[UnderseaLcpl]

e5xf4?

[Letum]

Qg3-h4

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Letum

Qg3-h4

e5xf4?

wasn't supposed to be an official move. It was a question.

But to avoid confusion, official moves by black will be posted in this format;

white 11. nd5xf4
black 11. be7xg5

Official move

[Skybird]

Yay, no move. Recognized it as a question from first second on.

As I said, Lance, the move recommends itself, just look at what it does to the balance of taken pieces.

the motive is obvious , and so is Letum's reply. So I assume that you both stick with your moves. If not, let me know, and I reverse the status diagram:



It's getting time for your king to beam into safety, Lance. White still has four long-ranging pieces - and you opened all your lines on the king's side. Get him out there.

You want to guard against White g6, since h7 cannot take it: the rook on h8 is not covered against the White Queen.
You want to keep a long gun aiming on the d-line.
You do not want to block the Bishop c8 against moving out.
You do not want to interrupt cover for both black rooks.
You do not want to let the queen let behind on some field, uncovered.

That leaves you with pretty much just one reasonable move.

Although it seems that somehow Black my win material, one or two pawns, in the future, I am not sure at the moment if White really has no compensation, for your 8th move, g5??, really was a terrible one, that blew all your chances to conduct maybe a direct combinatory attack against the king. right now it looks as if you are set for a long endgame, and a defensive battle against White trying to transrom one of his pawns - he has five (!) pawns on unblocked lines , and a clear pawn majority on king's wing (or do you say: side, flank?) and in centre.

A clear picture cannot be projected, since much depends on White'S replies to you future moves. Hard to calculate, therefore. No suicidal heroism now, please. Keep ypur army together, and pieces in mutual supporting positions, don'T leave some pieces stranded somehwerre, uncovered.

[Skybird]

A word on Black 8... g5??

One learns from mistakes, and I think it is important that oyu get at least an idea what potential you gave away there, Lance.

the following are two computer-analysis, since that part of the match is over and nobody gains an advantage from seeing these computer results now. It gives you an idea, I hope, why I said that you are in the better position there. The first is by Hiarcs 10, which is the more modern engine of the two, the second by Fritz 8, two years older. Hiarcs is stronger in positional understanding and you see that he starts to rate the position better than Fritz from the beginning on. Fritz is older, and not so heavy in chess-knowledge. However, I let Hiarcs calculate into the future 20 moves, resulting in material advantage, and positional advantage. Fritz even made White resign before that number of moves.

Behind each move, you have two numbers, separated by a dash. The first gives the position evaluation in pawn-units, the theoretical value of one pawn is 1.0, positives are in favour of White, negatives in favour of Black. -2.3 means that the engines sees Black having an overall advantage worth 2.3 pawns. This evaluation takes into account much more than just material, but positional advantages as well. Since Hiarcs is stronger in that than Fritz, it rates the position more in Black's favour. - The second number simply displays how many half-moves the engine has calculated ahead before giving the actual move.

Maybe print the move list, for your convenience. But play both variations on your board, and see what could have been, and by that see what went wrong with 8...g5.


8.h2-h4



Hiarcs 10

8...d5xe4 -2.18/11
9.f2-f3 -2.05/12 f7-f5 -1.95/12
10.Qg3-e1 -2.09/13 e4xd3 -2.05/12
11.c2xd3 -2.09/14 Ng4-f6 -1.99/14
12.Qe1xe5 -1.93/13 c7-c5 -2.03/11
13.Nc3-e2 -2.11/13 Nd4-c6 -2.05/11
14.Qe5-c3 -2.13/12 Bc8-e6 -2.07/11
15.Ne2-f4 -2.05/11 Be6-f7 -2.06/11
16.Bc1–e3 -2.30/12 Be7-d6 -2.29/10
17.Ng1–e2 -2.19/11 Qd8-e7 -2.08/10
18.Be3-f2 -2.09/11 0–0 -2.11/10
19.Kd1–c1 -1.99/11 Nc6-d4 -2.13/10
20.Kc1–b1 -2.12/11 Rf8-e8 -2.19/10
21.Qc3-a5 -2.27/10 Bd6xf4 -2.38/10
22.Ne2xf4 -2.59/11 b7-b5 -2.46/11
23.Qa5-d2 -2.58/12 b5-b4 -2.65/12
24.Qd2-c1 -2.71/11 b4-b3 -2.59/11
25.h4-h5 -2.67/11 b3xa2+ -3.02/11
26.Ra1xa2 -3.05/12 Bf7xa2+ -3.29/11
27.Kb1xa2 -3.26/12 Ra8-b8 -3.34/11

Black leads by a Rook and a knight (8.3 points) versus two bishops (6.6 points). White'S king is naked, Black controls e-line with a double battery and fires on the b-line as well. White's bishops are in prison, so is his Rook h1. Blacks figure'S have better chances to act in harmony with each other, than White. White has no compnesation whatever for his losses.



Fritz 8

8...d5xe4 -1.97/9 3
9.f2-f3 -2.00/11 f7-f5 -1.75/11
10.h4-h5 -2.03/10 f5-f4 -2.00/10
11.Qg3-e1 -1.97/10 Be7-b4 -1.66/9
12.Bc1xf4 -1.41/9 Qd8-f6 -1.31/8
13.Ng1–h3 -1.53/8 e4xf3 -1.44/8
14.g2xf3 -2.34/10 0–0 -2.19/9
15.f3xg4 -2.72/10 Bc8xg4+ -2.41/10
16.Kd1–c1 -2.94/12 Bg4xh3 -2.31/9
17.Qe1xe5 -2.66/11 Ra8-e8 -2.59/10
18.Nc3-e4 -3.06/11 Qf6-f7 -3.13/10
19.Qe5-g5 -3.69/11 Nd4-e6 -3.38/10
20.Qg5-h4 -3.94/12 Bh3xf1 -3.88/10
21.Bf4-d2 -4.12/11 Bb4xd2+ -4.38/11
22.Ne4xd2 -4.59/12 Bf1–g2 -4.91/11
23.Rh1–d1 -5.09/11 Qf7-f4 -5.47/12
24. resign

Hopeless situation.


now check what yopu could have gotten into if White would have exploited your mistake correctly:



8...g5??

Hiarcs:
9.h4xg5 0.83/11 d5xe4 1.55/12
10.f2-f3 1.43/12 e4xd3 1.77/11
11.Bf1xd3 2.01/11 Nd4-f5 2.50/11
12.Qg3-e1 2.48/12 Nf5-d4 2.48/11
13.f3xg4 2.48/11 Bc8xg4+ 2.64/12
14.Ng1–f3 2.55/12 Qd8-d7 2.23/10
15.Qe1–g3 2.18/10 0–0–0 2.25/10
16.Kd1–e1 2.25/10 Bg4xf3 2.14/10
17.g2xf3 2.27/11 f7-f5 2.29/10
18.g5xf6 2.32/11 Be7xf6 2.31/10
19.Qg3-g4 2.31/11 h7-h5 2.39/10

See how the position evaluation immediately jumps to White's advantage by a huge increase, almost 3 pawn-units?

Black has lost a bishop for a pawn only, and the offensive potential of his position befor 8...g5 is gone. You were lucky with Letum's reply.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So I assume that you both stick with your moves. If not, let me know, and I reverse the status diagram:

I'll stick with d5xe4, I just didn't want to act in haste and mess something up again.

Thanks for the computer analyses sky. It's going to take me a whiles to map them out and learn from them, but I think they'll help.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You want to guard against White g6, since h7 cannot take it: the rook on h8 is not covered against the White Queen.
You want to keep a long gun aiming on the d-line.
You do not want to block the Bishop c8 against moving out.
You do not want to interrupt cover for both black rooks.
You do not want to let the queen let behind on some field, uncovered.

h7-h5?