Should assault rifles be banned in the US? - Page 12

TarJak · 12-20-12, 10:31 PM

I suspect the reach and power of the NRA today would have frightenend them more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/god-bles...220-2bpf1.html

I said in one of the (many) other threads on gun politics here that because of the NRA's marketing spin and the sheer economics of the problem, I serisously doubt that there will be any serious and meaningful change to the gun laws.

Additionally its not just about the gun laws, although I believe that making appropriate changes to our gun laws has saved lives here (and that they could in the US), There also needs to be better support for mentally ill people both in the detection and a significant change in the fear that thr media appears to whip up in Americans which drives many of them to want to own guns for "self defence".

Yes we still have gun crime, however nothing on the scale of the US even on a per capita basis. But the fact is since 1996 no mass shootings in Australia, whilst we had 16 between 1989 and 1996 prior to the laws banning semi-automatic weapons.

That said I know from reading here that neither August or GR are likely to change their minds about something that they passionately believe in. Certainly they are unlikely to be swayed by facts or figures thrown at them at Subsim. Perhaps getting them out of America into a different culture for a while might make a difference.

So good luck and keep wearing your flak jackets. I hope you never need them.

RickC Sniper · 12-20-12, 11:08 PM

I think the more violent our society gets, the more good decent Americans feel they need to arm themselves legally. Take away our guns and only the good, decent law abiding people would be the ones affected.

The lawbreakers and rampage killers would still find a way to get their guns. Guns can be gotten illegally here as easily as illegal drugs. I cannot see any law changing that fact.

We are simply a violent society. I cannot say why that is the way of it, and I cannot say why it is getting worse, but there it is, it is a fact.
Those who are willing and able to defend their homes will never give up the right to do so, even if it means becoming as violent as the criminals. There really is no other way when you think about it, except to passively watch the thugs have their way with your loved ones or your property.

Regardless of the wording of the second amendment, and regardless of its original intent, the majority of Americans BELIEVE it simply means we have the right to own guns, and action by the government to chew slowly away at that idea is pretty much political suicide.

I'm all for the right to arm ourselves to defend home and family, but the so-called assault rifles are simply a poor choice for that. I also come from a background of rural America where hunting is a way of life passed down from generation to generation. Again, Assault rifles are a poor choice for that activity.

We know we don't need them to defend ourselves. We know the legal owners of them shoot them as a hobby. They don't hunt with them. (majority don't), they wouldn't or shouldn't use them as home defense. They shoot them because they are fun to shoot.

The pervailing thought by gun owners is, if we give up THIS small right now (say high capacity magazines), then the next thing you know they will be asking us to give up semi automatic guns.

If you make a concession, the thought is that eventually, little by little they take it all away.
And for the most part, I believe that to be true.

An honest question: If YOUR society was as violent as ours, would you have a different opinion about the gun ownership rights you gave up?

Sailor Steve · 12-20-12, 11:22 PM

After a careful rereading of this thread, I've come to a conclusion:

People should be banned from the US!

And maybe the rest of the world too!

We'll find out today/tomorrow.

TarJak · 12-20-12, 11:23 PM

An honest answer: No I would not. I've never felt the need nor had the inclination to own a gun. I think that Australian society is no less violent than the US or any other western society. Violence is in every society in just about the same proportions, except where rule of law has broken down completely.

The right that was taken away had a positive impact on these types of incident, which is exactly what they were designed to do. Despite the NRA's marketing of fear, I think you could do better than hanging onto a "right" just because its fun.

I'm sure its fun to fire an RPG or a bazooka or a 40mm AAA gun too. Does it mean you should maintain a right to do so?

Anyway I keep coming back to the ecomonics. You guys will keep your "fun" guns and keep having massacres. All the best from those that gave them up and don't have massacres.

Sailor Steve · 12-20-12, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

I'm sure its fun to fire an RPG or a bazooka or a 40mm AAA gun too. Does it mean you should maintain a right to do so?

Yes.

The right you give away today is the right you'll miss tomorrow.

Agiel7 · 12-20-12, 11:27 PM

I subscribe to Marilyn Manson's interpretation of the "Culture of Fear." Here in the United States, our social mores have ridiculously high standards, which boils down to roughly "if you and your family aren't attractive or don't make six figures, then you're abnormal." We have cultivated a society that believes those who do not meet those standards (in this case, the Adam Lanza kid) deserve to be unloved, ignored, and even downright ridiculed (I of course speak of before the fact).

Legislation that bans assault and concealed weapons may have reduced the body count, true, but it's not exactly a *SOLUTION* insomuch as the word "treatment" for a disease isn't a "cure" (And who's to say he couldn't have accomplished the same feat with mustard gas, when the ingredients for it were underneath the kitchen sink?) Such a ban would not make the gang problems in South Central LA disappear because the people who live there also live under the same "Culture of Fear." In the schools the problem goes both ways; the kids realise they don't have much to look forward to when they either graduate or (unfortunately much too often) drop out, and the schools' faculties know they're basically wasting their time with that "climate of fear."

August · 12-20-12, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

Perhaps getting them out of America into a different culture for a while might make a difference.

I spent three years living in another country. No offense to Australia, i'm sure it's a very nice place, but to tell you the truth there is no where I'd rather be than here.

As I noted above the NRA is getting on average 8000 new members a day for a week now. Gun owners are not the tool of the NRA, the NRA is the tool of the gun owner, and there are many millions of us.

TarJak · 12-20-12, 11:27 PM

and the right you keep that kills your kids is a yoke you'll have on your neck forever.

Sailor Steve · 12-20-12, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

and the right you keep that kills your kids is a yoke you'll have on your neck forever.

It's not the right that's killing our kids. It's the abuse of the right. I see a big difference.

TarJak · 12-20-12, 11:34 PM

I see your point however, its the right that makes the abuse more accessible, therefore the right is in the wrong. Take the weapons out of the market and that makes the abuse much harder to commit.

August · 12-20-12, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It's not the right that's killing our kids. It's the abuse of the right. I see a big difference.

Exactly and if abuse of a right is a justification for it's elimination then what other rights can be abused and therefore eliminated?

ZeeWolf · 12-20-12, 11:38 PM

The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting or self-protection from
criminals. But has everything to do with overthrowing a tyranny that mutates
from power. Power that was once intrusted to govern by consent but has turned against the will of the people and has mutated into a threat to liberty.

ZeeWolf

TarJak · 12-20-12, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Exactly and if abuse of a right is a justification for it's elimination then what other rights can be abused and therefore eliminated?

That's a nice piece of NRA PR you've got going there August. Its not the right to bear arms that's at issue, its the type of arms being born. Assault weapons have no place in civilian society and just because they are fun to fire doesn't give them one.

August · 12-21-12, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

That's a nice piece of NRA PR you've got going there August. Its not the right to bear arms that's at issue, its the type of arms being born. Assault weapons have no place in civilian society and just because they are fun to fire doesn't give them one.

Look don't try to belittle my position by saying I got it from the NRA. I am not a member and haven't been since for years though I will be joining in response to this latest assault on our constitution.

My opinions are my own. I'll thank you to respect that.

As for your opinion on what you think I should have a right to have so noted.

TarJak · 12-21-12, 12:11 AM

I respect your right to your opinion and said as much in an earlier post. Its just that your opinion appears to be very consistent with the NRA's pitch since 1977. Can't help it if their marketing works can I?

I also said that my opinion is never likely to sway you from your belief in the right to hold a weapon of a particular type. This is also why I've said I doubt that anything meaningful will be done in relation to gun laws in the US. If you don't want to listen to experience from outside then we can't really help you save your kids can we?

View Poll Results: Should assault rifles be banned in the US?
Yes, all I need is a handgun	23	45.10%
No, burglars need to be shot 79 times	28	54.90%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

12-20-12, 11:08 PM	#167
RickC Sniper Undetectable Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,221 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	I think the more violent our society gets, the more good decent Americans feel they need to arm themselves legally. Take away our guns and only the good, decent law abiding people would be the ones affected. The lawbreakers and rampage killers would still find a way to get their guns. Guns can be gotten illegally here as easily as illegal drugs. I cannot see any law changing that fact. We are simply a violent society. I cannot say why that is the way of it, and I cannot say why it is getting worse, but there it is, it is a fact. Those who are willing and able to defend their homes will never give up the right to do so, even if it means becoming as violent as the criminals. There really is no other way when you think about it, except to passively watch the thugs have their way with your loved ones or your property. Regardless of the wording of the second amendment, and regardless of its original intent, the majority of Americans BELIEVE it simply means we have the right to own guns, and action by the government to chew slowly away at that idea is pretty much political suicide. I'm all for the right to arm ourselves to defend home and family, but the so-called assault rifles are simply a poor choice for that. I also come from a background of rural America where hunting is a way of life passed down from generation to generation. Again, Assault rifles are a poor choice for that activity. We know we don't need them to defend ourselves. We know the legal owners of them shoot them as a hobby. They don't hunt with them. (majority don't), they wouldn't or shouldn't use them as home defense. They shoot them because they are fun to shoot. The pervailing thought by gun owners is, if we give up THIS small right now (say high capacity magazines), then the next thing you know they will be asking us to give up semi automatic guns. If you make a concession, the thought is that eventually, little by little they take it all away. And for the most part, I believe that to be true. An honest question: If YOUR society was as violent as ours, would you have a different opinion about the gun ownership rights you gave up? __________________ Support Subsim http://www.subsim.com/store.html

12-20-12, 11:22 PM	#168
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	After a careful rereading of this thread, I've come to a conclusion: People should be banned from the US! And maybe the rest of the world too! We'll find out today/tomorrow. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-20-12, 10:31 PM	#166
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I suspect the reach and power of the NRA today would have frightenend them more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/god-bles...220-2bpf1.html I said in one of the (many) other threads on gun politics here that because of the NRA's marketing spin and the sheer economics of the problem, I serisously doubt that there will be any serious and meaningful change to the gun laws. Additionally its not just about the gun laws, although I believe that making appropriate changes to our gun laws has saved lives here (and that they could in the US), There also needs to be better support for mentally ill people both in the detection and a significant change in the fear that thr media appears to whip up in Americans which drives many of them to want to own guns for "self defence". Yes we still have gun crime, however nothing on the scale of the US even on a per capita basis. But the fact is since 1996 no mass shootings in Australia, whilst we had 16 between 1989 and 1996 prior to the laws banning semi-automatic weapons. That said I know from reading here that neither August or GR are likely to change their minds about something that they passionately believe in. Certainly they are unlikely to be swayed by facts or figures thrown at them at Subsim. Perhaps getting them out of America into a different culture for a while might make a difference. So good luck and keep wearing your flak jackets. I hope you never need them.

12-20-12, 11:23 PM	#169
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	An honest answer: No I would not. I've never felt the need nor had the inclination to own a gun. I think that Australian society is no less violent than the US or any other western society. Violence is in every society in just about the same proportions, except where rule of law has broken down completely. The right that was taken away had a positive impact on these types of incident, which is exactly what they were designed to do. Despite the NRA's marketing of fear, I think you could do better than hanging onto a "right" just because its fun. I'm sure its fun to fire an RPG or a bazooka or a 40mm AAA gun too. Does it mean you should maintain a right to do so? Anyway I keep coming back to the ecomonics. You guys will keep your "fun" guns and keep having massacres. All the best from those that gave them up and don't have massacres.

12-20-12, 11:27 PM	#171
Agiel7 Gunner Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 97 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	I subscribe to Marilyn Manson's interpretation of the "Culture of Fear." Here in the United States, our social mores have ridiculously high standards, which boils down to roughly "if you and your family aren't attractive or don't make six figures, then you're abnormal." We have cultivated a society that believes those who do not meet those standards (in this case, the Adam Lanza kid) deserve to be unloved, ignored, and even downright ridiculed (I of course speak of before the fact). Legislation that bans assault and concealed weapons may have reduced the body count, true, but it's not exactly a SOLUTION insomuch as the word "treatment" for a disease isn't a "cure" (And who's to say he couldn't have accomplished the same feat with mustard gas, when the ingredients for it were underneath the kitchen sink?) Such a ban would not make the gang problems in South Central LA disappear because the people who live there also live under the same "Culture of Fear." In the schools the problem goes both ways; the kids realise they don't have much to look forward to when they either graduate or (unfortunately much too often) drop out, and the schools' faculties know they're basically wasting their time with that "climate of fear."

12-20-12, 11:27 PM	#173
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	and the right you keep that kills your kids is a yoke you'll have on your neck forever.

12-20-12, 11:34 PM	#175
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I see your point however, its the right that makes the abuse more accessible, therefore the right is in the wrong. Take the weapons out of the market and that makes the abuse much harder to commit.

12-20-12, 11:38 PM	#177
ZeeWolf Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Great NorthWest Posts: 1,724 Downloads: 58 Uploads: 1	The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting or self-protection from criminals. But has everything to do with overthrowing a tyranny that mutates from power. Power that was once intrusted to govern by consent but has turned against the will of the people and has mutated into a threat to liberty. ZeeWolf

12-21-12, 12:11 AM	#180
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I respect your right to your opinion and said as much in an earlier post. Its just that your opinion appears to be very consistent with the NRA's pitch since 1977. Can't help it if their marketing works can I? I also said that my opinion is never likely to sway you from your belief in the right to hold a weapon of a particular type. This is also why I've said I doubt that anything meaningful will be done in relation to gun laws in the US. If you don't want to listen to experience from outside then we can't really help you save your kids can we?