Military coup in Turkey - Page 11

Skybird · 07-21-16, 09:45 AM

And there goes the European Convention of Human Rights down the drain - Turkey has suspended it.

Which is only consequent, since I argue since over ten years now that Turkey is not part of Europe. The culture is Middle Eastern, the ethnic group of Turk-men comes from Northern Iran and Afghanistan, the language has nothing in common with traditional European languages, and the value system of Islam (which inevitably and unavoidably can only mean Sharia) is incompatible with that of Western humanism, civil rights, and understanding of liberty and individuality, not to mention that the political-communal and the religous realm do not get separated at all, and rule over the individual (which is totalitarianism, Muhammad always was about uniformity). Just around 5% of the Turkish territory lies north of the Bosporus.

This is not Europe. Even Constantinople, even before Islam conquered the land of today'S Turkey, it was a sphere of transition, where Europe faded out, and the Orient faded in. Cultural spohere are not strictly separated by a border just 300m thick, they fade in and fade out in their outer periphery over sometimes dozens, sometimes hundreds of kilometers.

Diopos · 07-21-16, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

...
This is not Europe. Even Constantinople, even before Islam conquered the land of today'S Turkey, it was a sphere of transition, where Europe faded out, and the Orient faded in. Cultural spohere are not strictly separated by a border just 300m thick, they fade in and fade out in their outer periphery over sometimes dozens, sometimes hundreds of kilometers.

Constantinople and the eastern roman empire (called "Byzantium" by western scolars centuries later) was actually brought to its knees around 1200 during the 4th Crusade (recaptured by the "Byzantines" about 50 years later). Capitulation to the Turks at 1453 was just the end game. When (and where) do you exactly set the begining of Europe? I am really not at all sure that the Catholics were more "Europeans" than the Orthodox back in 1200, for example.

Uhmmm, did I just hijack the thread?

.

Skybird · 07-21-16, 12:09 PM

Its not that linear. Like there is not a simple line on a map that marks where Europe ends and the Middle East or the Russian sphere begin (to separate that from the Russian state, since the Russian sphere in a way can be seen as truly Multicultural due to its immense size), but I see that line more as a zone ov varying width where Europe fades out and the neighbouring "empire" fades in, a zone of cultural transation.

One could argue that "bureaucratically" Constantinople was European, but there were also signficant and growing differences to west-Rome, and similiarities with former Roman provinces that today without doubt would be rated as "Middle East". The Islamic conquest and the ongoing attacks along the African coast as well as to the Noth, Northeas and Northwest, towards Iran and India as well as towards the heart of Europe, of course shook and rattled things up.

I tried to "mark" the sphere of transiton between the major cultural sphere there are in this map snippet below, by lighting it up. You may get the general idea, with some good will. Note the enclave of Georgia between Russia and the Middle East (Iran) that not just sees a shift from "Oriental" to "Russian, but that I also link a bit to Europe, though I would not see it as predominantly European, the Christian faith is the dominant religion, but it is the Orthodox (="Russian") branch. Note also my considering of the Agean area and Greece being part of this zone of transition, too. In the Aegean area and the islands, all three cultural spheres - Europe, Russia, Middle East, mix and melt, and Greece traditionally is orthodox Christian and quite left-leaning, which makes it sharing many similiarities with Russia as well.

Finally, you see that I see the Ukraine as an entity of three zones, a European one in the West, a Russian one in the East, and a transition zone in the middle. The Balkan area I also see to be transition zones, for the most, especially because of the religious clashes there between Muslim and Christian factions, both present and past, and the role the Turks/Osmans once played there as well.

Russia I see as a sphere in itself, it is neither European, nor Middle East, nor Asia. Russia to me always was "Russia". And if there is a land on Earth that is truly multicultural, than it is Russia - it begins at the Baltic (Europe), stretches in the south across all the Middle Eastern area, and ends at the Pacific, which is Asia. It makes no sense to say it is Asia, or it is Europe, or it is Middle East. It's Russia. and IU have no clue how many regional native languages are spoken within its borders - but I expect no other country on Earth can show up with such a high number. History, religions and races prevent seeing it as just one giant zone of transition from Europe to Asia, with exclusion of any own-identity of "Russia", to me that makes no sense. Its no small enclave of something, it is a giant place with many faces instead.

Dont argue about whether that strip I marked should be 100km wider or narrower here and there, its just a sketch done on the fly and without spending thoughts on any possible individual location and vilage there is. You get the general idea. Empires do not just end, but have a periphery that overlaps with that of the neighbouring empire, sphere. Here the one fades in and the other fades out, depending on what direction you are moving at. History, race, culture, religion, language, value systems, and so forth - all play a role.

The idea that Europe stretches out to the Ural, is absurd to me. That is desktop thinking only. I knew Russians. For them, even the middle between the distance Moscow - Ural did not show much European influence anymore. Russia becomes truly Russian long time West of the Ural already.

Diopos · 07-21-16, 02:00 PM

@ Skybird
There is a interesting theory of historic/geopolitical thinking about the "interim region" between West (Catholic/Protestant Europe) and the East (Sino/indian /Far East). An interesting observation concerning the southern balkan+ asia minor part of it is that it is stable when a state entity controls simultaneously the Bosphorus and both sides of the Aegean + Crete (Roman Empire, Byzantium then the Ottoman Empire). Compare it to the situation today and you get an answer. The misfortune regarding Turkey is that there are parts of the society that are extremely close to a conventional european """framework""" of thought regarding science arts economy religious tolerance and politics. Probably they will suffer the most ...

Skybird · 07-21-16, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diopos

@ Skybird
There is a interesting theory of historic/geopolitical thinking about the "interim region" between West (Catholic/Protestant Europe) and the East (Sino/indian /Far East). An interesting observation concerning the southern balkan+ asia minor part of it is that it is stable when a state entity controls simultaneously the Bosphorus and both sides of the Aegean + Crete (Roman Empire, Byzantium then the Ottoman Empire). Compare it to the situation today and you get an answer. The misfortune regarding Turkey is that there are parts of the society that are extremely close to a conventional european """framework""" of thought regarding science arts economy religious tolerance and politics. Probably they will suffer the most ...

They will, they already do, and it is like that since many years now. We talk about Istanbul, the Western Aegean coast, and the part NorthEast of the Bosporus, also some more major cities that have tourist contact to the West, Antalya and such. But as I repeatedly said, 80% of the Turkish population lives outside the major cities, in rural, often very poor places: and here Islamic orthodoxy and archaic Turkish social structure, the extreme patriarchalism in families, of course also the AKP, dominate at will, here is where the AKP originally came from and where it has its powerhouse. This is whatn Turkeyx mainly is, not the business metropole of Istanbul and the tourist ressorts at the Turkish reviera. The more Western-oriented Turkish "Bildungsbürgertum", to use the German term for it, is a minority, it already was that in the 90s when I were in Turkey for some longer time. The Kemalist era (with its secularism as well as its corruption), was an intermezzo only, an experiment that was proven to have failed when Erdoghan was allowed to become Führer a decade ago.

Religious orthodoxy never had gone away, it only slept over a longer Kemalist winter. And now the sleeper has awakened. The path of Turkey now is decided, and clear. And we in the West will not like it. We must adapt to it, and start to no longer try the old ways of dealiung withTurkey. TZhey have failed, and they will not function all of a sudden. Time for a new strategy. Containment and confrontation must be parts of it. If we do not understand that, Turkey will give Europe as well as Washington hell.

Catfish · 07-22-16, 02:53 AM

Contrary to some opinions above Turkey has been a secular democracy for some time, as long as secular politicians and the army cared for it. Erdoghan himself is not Muslim or Anti-Muslim, he just uses all to his personal advantage.

Excellent article about the "death of a democracy", only in german i'm afraid:
(GMX together with Spiegel online)
http://www.gmx.net/magazine/politik/...ratie-31698422

Get. Those. Nukes. Out.

Skybird · 07-23-16, 05:32 AM

Turkey always was Muslim - it was just supressed by the Kemalist secularism, Catfish. But Islam always was there, and strong under the surface, it never was successfully done away. The Kemalist elite lost support with the ordinary people due to its inherent corruption and the abuse resulting from that. The AKP very strongly rests in religion. Orthodoxy, Islam, always was much stronger in the rural places, than in the metropoles. It does not matter whether Erdoghan just stage-acts and plays the religious card - he probably does, like Saddam did - or is truly religious: its the power of the attractiveness of religion for the masses that causes this disaster in Turkey. Erdoghan's Führer-cult just makes it even worse. What he wants, essentially is an Erdoghanisty.

I predicted all this already over ten years ago, here in the forum. Many did not want to believe me. - My last experiences with being in Turkey's East, near the Iranian border and in the Kurdish areas, are twenty years ago - already back then the attitude towards Westerners was very cold and supremacist, and the belief of one's own national and religious superiority was extremely strong amongst rural Turks, the traditional demands and rules of hospitality were met when we came, noi matter whether with or without previous announcement, okay - but often on such ice-cold minimal level of standards that it could not cover the underlaying hostility. The rite was done, but its spirit not met, so to speak. And that was not just suspicion towards the foreigners, or suspicion that maybe we would sympathise with the Kurds.

Nothing of what we now see, surprises me. It just pisses me nevertheless. You can know in advance, and still be pissed when it finally materialises.

I wonder whether Erdoghans calculation to install himself as the new voice of the Islamic world really can work. The Turks are not Arabs, and the Ottoman empire was known for and hated for its explicit brutality and contempt it acted with towards the Arabs it dominated. The Arab world in principle despises and hates Turks, almost as much as it despises and dislikes Palestinian Arabs, if not more. Relögious fervor and momentary momentums may covert that - I wonder whether that really can last with the Arab crowds. Its not just anybody they should applaude for - its the Turks.

---

10,000 additional arrest in the past 36 hours

. another 1000 schools shut, plus 15 universities. One third of the staff in governmental offices sacked, fired, removed.

Diopos · 07-23-16, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

...
... and the Ottoman empire was known for and hated for its explicit brutality and contempt it acted with towards the Arabs it dominated.

Uhmm ... not only the Arabs ...

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

...
One third of the staff in governmental offices sacked, fired, removed.

Proof that the second coup was staged by the International Monetary Fund and the Troika

(yeah yeah I know ... low quality bankrupt greek humor)

.

Oberon · 07-24-16, 04:47 PM

Large fire near the NATO base at the Buca district of Izmir province, despite attempts by NATO personnel to stop it, it is alledgedly threatening the arsenal stored at the base. The cause of the fire is unknown and sabotage has been mentioned as a possibility.

https://www.rt.com/news/353034-turkey-nato-base-fire/

Jimbuna · 07-25-16, 01:26 PM

The nukes should be okay then because they are stored at Incirlik.

mapuc · 07-31-16, 06:29 PM

This evening and night I have seen several "breaking news" like

Erdogan have sieged the Incirlik AFB . cutting of all water, power and food to the base.

I have seen nothing about this in our ordinary news channel, so how trustworthy are those information.

The information came from shoebat.com

Markus

07-31-16, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

This evening and night I have seen several "breaking news" like

Erdogan have sieged the Incirlik AFB . cutting of all water, power and food to the base.

I have seen nothing about this in our ordinary news channel, so how trustworthy are those information.

The information came from shoebat.com

Markus

Rather: How trustworthy is your "ordinary news channel".

Von Due · 07-31-16, 08:16 PM

A slightly different note: Came across this, from when it happened. Chaos is the word alright. The controller held together good though depite all.

Hard to get the sense of confusion that must have reigned there, watching the news alone.

07-21-16, 09:45 AM	#151
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,813 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	And there goes the European Convention of Human Rights down the drain - Turkey has suspended it. Which is only consequent, since I argue since over ten years now that Turkey is not part of Europe. The culture is Middle Eastern, the ethnic group of Turk-men comes from Northern Iran and Afghanistan, the language has nothing in common with traditional European languages, and the value system of Islam (which inevitably and unavoidably can only mean Sharia) is incompatible with that of Western humanism, civil rights, and understanding of liberty and individuality, not to mention that the political-communal and the religous realm do not get separated at all, and rule over the individual (which is totalitarianism, Muhammad always was about uniformity). Just around 5% of the Turkish territory lies north of the Bosporus. This is not Europe. Even Constantinople, even before Islam conquered the land of today'S Turkey, it was a sphere of transition, where Europe faded out, and the Orient faded in. Cultural spohere are not strictly separated by a border just 300m thick, they fade in and fade out in their outer periphery over sometimes dozens, sometimes hundreds of kilometers. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-21-16, 12:09 PM	#153
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,813 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Its not that linear. Like there is not a simple line on a map that marks where Europe ends and the Middle East or the Russian sphere begin (to separate that from the Russian state, since the Russian sphere in a way can be seen as truly Multicultural due to its immense size), but I see that line more as a zone ov varying width where Europe fades out and the neighbouring "empire" fades in, a zone of cultural transation. One could argue that "bureaucratically" Constantinople was European, but there were also signficant and growing differences to west-Rome, and similiarities with former Roman provinces that today without doubt would be rated as "Middle East". The Islamic conquest and the ongoing attacks along the African coast as well as to the Noth, Northeas and Northwest, towards Iran and India as well as towards the heart of Europe, of course shook and rattled things up. I tried to "mark" the sphere of transiton between the major cultural sphere there are in this map snippet below, by lighting it up. You may get the general idea, with some good will. Note the enclave of Georgia between Russia and the Middle East (Iran) that not just sees a shift from "Oriental" to "Russian, but that I also link a bit to Europe, though I would not see it as predominantly European, the Christian faith is the dominant religion, but it is the Orthodox (="Russian") branch. Note also my considering of the Agean area and Greece being part of this zone of transition, too. In the Aegean area and the islands, all three cultural spheres - Europe, Russia, Middle East, mix and melt, and Greece traditionally is orthodox Christian and quite left-leaning, which makes it sharing many similiarities with Russia as well. Finally, you see that I see the Ukraine as an entity of three zones, a European one in the West, a Russian one in the East, and a transition zone in the middle. The Balkan area I also see to be transition zones, for the most, especially because of the religious clashes there between Muslim and Christian factions, both present and past, and the role the Turks/Osmans once played there as well. Russia I see as a sphere in itself, it is neither European, nor Middle East, nor Asia. Russia to me always was "Russia". And if there is a land on Earth that is truly multicultural, than it is Russia - it begins at the Baltic (Europe), stretches in the south across all the Middle Eastern area, and ends at the Pacific, which is Asia. It makes no sense to say it is Asia, or it is Europe, or it is Middle East. It's Russia. and IU have no clue how many regional native languages are spoken within its borders - but I expect no other country on Earth can show up with such a high number. History, religions and races prevent seeing it as just one giant zone of transition from Europe to Asia, with exclusion of any own-identity of "Russia", to me that makes no sense. Its no small enclave of something, it is a giant place with many faces instead. Dont argue about whether that strip I marked should be 100km wider or narrower here and there, its just a sketch done on the fly and without spending thoughts on any possible individual location and vilage there is. You get the general idea. Empires do not just end, but have a periphery that overlaps with that of the neighbouring empire, sphere. Here the one fades in and the other fades out, depending on what direction you are moving at. History, race, culture, religion, language, value systems, and so forth - all play a role. The idea that Europe stretches out to the Ural, is absurd to me. That is desktop thinking only. I knew Russians. For them, even the middle between the distance Moscow - Ural did not show much European influence anymore. Russia becomes truly Russian long time West of the Ural already. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-21-16, 02:00 PM	#154
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	@ Skybird There is a interesting theory of historic/geopolitical thinking about the "interim region" between West (Catholic/Protestant Europe) and the East (Sino/indian /Far East). An interesting observation concerning the southern balkan+ asia minor part of it is that it is stable when a state entity controls simultaneously the Bosphorus and both sides of the Aegean + Crete (Roman Empire, Byzantium then the Ottoman Empire). Compare it to the situation today and you get an answer. The misfortune regarding Turkey is that there are parts of the society that are extremely close to a conventional european """framework""" of thought regarding science arts economy religious tolerance and politics. Probably they will suffer the most ... __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

07-22-16, 02:53 AM	#156
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,822 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Contrary to some opinions above Turkey has been a secular democracy for some time, as long as secular politicians and the army cared for it. Erdoghan himself is not Muslim or Anti-Muslim, he just uses all to his personal advantage. Excellent article about the "death of a democracy", only in german i'm afraid: (GMX together with Spiegel online) http://www.gmx.net/magazine/politik/...ratie-31698422 Get. Those. Nukes. Out. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

07-23-16, 05:32 AM	#157
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,813 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Turkey always was Muslim - it was just supressed by the Kemalist secularism, Catfish. But Islam always was there, and strong under the surface, it never was successfully done away. The Kemalist elite lost support with the ordinary people due to its inherent corruption and the abuse resulting from that. The AKP very strongly rests in religion. Orthodoxy, Islam, always was much stronger in the rural places, than in the metropoles. It does not matter whether Erdoghan just stage-acts and plays the religious card - he probably does, like Saddam did - or is truly religious: its the power of the attractiveness of religion for the masses that causes this disaster in Turkey. Erdoghan's Führer-cult just makes it even worse. What he wants, essentially is an Erdoghanisty. I predicted all this already over ten years ago, here in the forum. Many did not want to believe me. - My last experiences with being in Turkey's East, near the Iranian border and in the Kurdish areas, are twenty years ago - already back then the attitude towards Westerners was very cold and supremacist, and the belief of one's own national and religious superiority was extremely strong amongst rural Turks, the traditional demands and rules of hospitality were met when we came, noi matter whether with or without previous announcement, okay - but often on such ice-cold minimal level of standards that it could not cover the underlaying hostility. The rite was done, but its spirit not met, so to speak. And that was not just suspicion towards the foreigners, or suspicion that maybe we would sympathise with the Kurds. Nothing of what we now see, surprises me. It just pisses me nevertheless. You can know in advance, and still be pissed when it finally materialises. I wonder whether Erdoghans calculation to install himself as the new voice of the Islamic world really can work. The Turks are not Arabs, and the Ottoman empire was known for and hated for its explicit brutality and contempt it acted with towards the Arabs it dominated. The Arab world in principle despises and hates Turks, almost as much as it despises and dislikes Palestinian Arabs, if not more. Relögious fervor and momentary momentums may covert that - I wonder whether that really can last with the Arab crowds. Its not just anybody they should applaude for - its the Turks. --- 10,000 additional arrest in the past 36 hours . another 1000 schools shut, plus 15 universities. One third of the staff in governmental offices sacked, fired, removed. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 07-23-16 at 07:23 AM.

07-24-16, 04:47 PM	#159
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Large fire near the NATO base at the Buca district of Izmir province, despite attempts by NATO personnel to stop it, it is alledgedly threatening the arsenal stored at the base. The cause of the fire is unknown and sabotage has been mentioned as a possibility. https://www.rt.com/news/353034-turkey-nato-base-fire/

07-25-16, 01:26 PM	#160
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,437 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	The nukes should be okay then because they are stored at Incirlik. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

07-31-16, 06:29 PM	#161
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,641 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	This evening and night I have seen several "breaking news" like Erdogan have sieged the Incirlik AFB . cutting of all water, power and food to the base. I have seen nothing about this in our ordinary news channel, so how trustworthy are those information. The information came from shoebat.com Markus

07-31-16, 08:16 PM	#163
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,691 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	A slightly different note: Came across this, from when it happened. Chaos is the word alright. The controller held together good though depite all. Hard to get the sense of confusion that must have reigned there, watching the news alone.