[REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10 - Page 10

Roger Dodger · 08-12-10, 01:57 AM

I finally got around to trying out the TDC Targeting (Part 2). Using the RADAR for plotting course and track of target works well, and I am able to get a pretty good estimate (even though I was tracking a fishing fleet).

When I went to the TBT/Periscope screen and pulled out the tools, I noticed that the ATTACK/DATA TOOL does not have the 'Send to TDC' or the 'Clock' buttons - only smooth metal where they should be. The Stadimeter (Range), AOB and Speed buttons are present and working, but not the other two.

No one else has complained here, so I must be unique. What happened to the buttons, and how do I get them back?

I tried disabling the TDC Mod, then enabled the Submarine School training mods and the TDC Mod, but still no buttons.

Installed Mods:
TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Convoy Routes TMO+RSRD
Radar and TDC Training Missions v1.02
3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v1.02

NorthBeach · 08-12-10, 02:08 AM

Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

Nisgeis · 08-12-10, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Do I get compensated for my time?

You get the standard compensation of the tears of a thousand unicorns. I have taken the liberty of placing them in your house's water system already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I reloaded my 3d TDC. I am practicing on the 3rd practice mission. The 3d TDC is the last mod enabled. I disabled the Gate interior fix to be safe. I now have the course down via plotting with map contacts enabled.

I have tried to set course via the triangle on the 3d TDC target dial. I set course to 115 degrees (or 118 degrees, I forgot?) but the dial on the right does not match, nor does the ship snap to its new course. I set the new course when the stadimeter is showing the Aob dial. I have tried setting course with TDC off and with radar turned off. I have tried it with TDC on and radar turned on. I have tried it with periscope locked on the target and with periscope unlocked. What is wrong?

Something your doing isn't right. Read the target course off the target course dial, nowhere else. Post up a screenshot of the TDC settings where you have the white triangles in the position for 115 and we'll tell you if that's right or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urge

Hallelujah Put 4 cases of beer in the cooler! Range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on the PK and update range and bearing leaving PK on.

Just like in the tutorial

. Well done captain

. Now try some of the other radar missions and see if you can hit them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthBeach

Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

Exactly that. Thanks NorthBeach.

John Channing · 08-12-10, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urge

Hallelujah Put 4 cases of beer in the cooler! Range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on the PK and update range and bearing leaving PK on.

Urge

Congratulations! Feels great, don't it?

And don't forget that after you turn on the PK and update range/bearing reset your course in the TDC leaving PK on!

JCC

Roger Dodger · 08-12-10, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthBeach

Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

Sure enough - my bad. I've never used manual targeting before, so didn't even think to rig for it.

Thanks for the enlightenment

Now that I have rigged for Manual-Targeting, it is no longer possible to 'Lock' the TBT/Scope on the target, yes? I don't see those handy-dandy yellow/green triangles anymore.

God Bless Electric Boat

John Channing · 08-12-10, 03:04 PM

Use the "L" key.

(For those of you who remember "Janes Apache-Longbow", I can still hear the instructor's voice...)

JCC

Roger Dodger · 08-12-10, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Hmmm, that's odd. I don't know how that happened, perhaps something got mixed up. With the radar training pack I provided, you don't need to copy them into the single missions folder, just install with JSGME as normal. I downloaded JCC's version of the mission and he's changed the ship without updating the blurb, except his ship starts about 20 km away and is on a course of 342 so that can't be the mission you have either. Maybe along the way I incorporated a changed mission file without noticing.

I've modified the mission and re-uploaded it here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1952

10 knots on a course of 338 at a starting range of 12,000 yards.

I downloaded and installed v1.02 via JSME into the Submarine School as directed. When I tried out the first 'mission', I found myself smacky-dab in the middle of about forty-eleven U.S. Destroyers and Cruisers - some stationary, some moving.

Say 'What???' I haven't even tried to find the target @12K yards. Did I miss something?

Roger Dodger · 08-12-10, 09:39 PM

Near the end of Part 2, text on the screen says:

"We are almost ready to shoot. The target is at 1661 yds.
He will cross your bow at 88 degrees (his course 338 - your course 250 degrees = 88 degrees)"

I'll assume that courses 338 and 250 are 'True' courses, so the 88 degrees must also be a 'True' bearing (as opposed to 'Relative' bearing). Which dial will read out the 88 degree bearing? And is that the point where I fire my torpedoes?

I'm goin' down · 08-13-10, 01:06 AM

How do I get my screen shot to be full size? Every size I try is smaller that the space on the screen. I am using image shack. I make the screen shot with Widows Vista Paint.

John Channing · 08-13-10, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Dodger

Near the end of Part 2, text on the screen says:

"We are almost ready to shoot. The target is at 1661 yds.
He will cross your bow at 88 degrees (his course 338 - your course 250 degrees = 88 degrees)"

I'll assume that courses 338 and 250 are 'True' courses, so the 88 degrees must also be a 'True' bearing (as opposed to 'Relative' bearing). Which dial will read out the 88 degree bearing? And is that the point where I fire my torpedoes?

The courses are indeed true. The 88 degrees will be your torpedo track angle or the relative bearing difference between the target course and yours. This is indicated by the "arrow" coming out of your sub on the "Own Ship" dial.

Looking at the dials as they are now if I was to shoot the torpedo would have to change direction by about 20 degrees to the left and it would hit the ship on it's port bow at a very oblique angle. Bettwer to wait until the ship closes a bit and it is closer to a 90 degree angle

When I am in the chair I generally shoot when the arrow is no more than +/- 15 degrees off of the center of my boat (on the dial) and the target is roughly perpendicular to my boat (assuming you are in range). tricky but it can be done.

This is like one of those old 3-D puzzles. If you stare at it long enough, it all becomes clear!

JCC

John Channing · 08-13-10, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

How do I get my screen shot to be full size? Every size I try is smaller that the space on the screen. I am using image shack. I make the screen shot with Widows Vista Paint.

I never had much luck with Image Shack. I just set up a photo album here and link to it. The photos seem to size correctly without any frigging around.

Go to your "User CP" and look along the left for the link to set up your very own Subsim photo album.

All part of the service.

JCC

Roger Dodger · 08-13-10, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

The courses are indeed true. The 88 degrees will be your torpedo track angle or the relative bearing difference between the target course and yours. This is indicated by the "arrow" coming out of your sub on the "Own Ship" dial.

Looking at the dials as they are now if I was to shoot the torpedo would have to change direction by about 20 degrees to the left and it would hit the ship on it's port bow at a very oblique angle. Bettwer to wait until the ship closes a bit and it is closer to a 90 degree angle

When I am in the chair I generally shoot when the arrow is no more than +/- 15 degrees off of the center of my boat (on the dial) and the target is roughly perpendicular to my boat (assuming you are in range). tricky but it can be done.

This is like one of those old 3-D puzzles. If you stare at it long enough, it all becomes clear!

JCC

Yeah, I think I need a cartoon or something. I'm having a really hard time visualizing this.

I just finished running the 2nd Sub School Mission. Everybody is stationary, so the set-up was pretty casual. I took three RADAR observations to start to get a good idea of where the target was, then used the scope (bridge was all wet due to a monsoon) to line up with the bearing (312T), hit the (=) key, 1/3 ahead. When headed in the right direction, came to all stop, and took two more RADAR observations. Repeated this process several times, making minor corrections as I went along. When I got to where I felt comfortable with the firing solution, fired three torpedoes and scored three hits. Pretty good for firing blind (never could see the target until I got a hit). I could never have gotten a shot using auto-targeting since I couldn't get an observation.

Final readouts from the periscope screen:
POSITION KEEPER/TORPEDO SETTINGS
Bow Torpedo's track angle: 89
Range: 917
Bow Torpedo's gyro angle: 357 (R)
Bow Torpedo's course: 312 (T)
Offset Angle: 0
FIRING OBSERVATION (RADAR)
Range: 800
Bearing: 357

Never figured out why the descreptency between the two ranges.

I'm goin' down · 08-13-10, 10:30 PM

Uoading of screenshots turned into a disaster. I quit trying.

Here is an update. I figured out the 3D TDC target course setting protocol. In determining a target's course I do not know why one would fiddle with the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC by dragging the white triangle to match its plotted course. That dial appears useless when initially inputting a target's course. The dial that initially affects the target's course is the target dial on the upper RIGHT of the 3D TDC. That is what worked for me. First, I open the stadimeter to the Aob dial. Second, I open the 3D TDC and set the target's course via the target dial on the upper RIGHT. Third, I open the the stadimeter's Aob dial and send the target's course to the TDC. Fourth, I open the 3D TDC to verify it has accepted the data re the course change. If the course change has been accepted, the target dial on the upper left on the 3D TDC snaps to the new course. If this procedure is correct, then I have solved the target course problem I was having. I used this procedure to sink the slow target in the the third training mission.

Here are some other questions and comments.

First, in Channing's tutorial he notes that after plotting 3 or 4 entries one has determined the target's preliminary range, course and speed. Actually, you one has not determined preliminary speed. One has determined preliminary range and course only. I think the comment re speed is a mistake.

Second, what is the point of turning the radar off. Two times in the tutorial, the reader is instructed to turn radar off. His initial instructions notes that turning of radar is an important step. I do not understand why or the importance of doing so. It this instruction necessary or important?

Third, and this is a major question. The tutorial instructs the reader to set speed via the 3 minute rule. This is a pain the ass, and using the stop watch in combo with range/bearing readings is not precise because you are taking a range and bearing, starting the watch, switching screens to plot, switiiching screens to send the range, and at the end of three minutes, doing it again. Question No. 3: Why can't the reader rely on the watch button on the stadimeter speed dial, take two range and bearing readings, and rely the radarman's calculation of speed? I believe URGE or Hitman noted that this was an alternative. I would save time and needless plotting.

Once the TDC is in operation, one can verify if the course is accurate on the Attack Map. If it appears inaccurate, additional range and bearing readings will assist in providing correct information. If range is the only issue, one can adjust it via the range dial on the stadimeter.

I note that I missed six shots at the second tanker in the Mission 3 tutorial (the one approaching from 70 degrees starboard), but not by much. The tanker approached fairly quickly, and I was compelled to turn my boat 90 degrees to starboard to have a better (but not great) angle for an attack. I measured the tanker's speed at 14.25 kts. which was probably too slow. Its course was 220 degrees which appeared fairly accurate. The shots missed aft of the tanker by a few hundred yds. The problem here was the closing speed of the tanker, as it was passing my boat before I had a completed the set up. If I had spotted it at 20K yds. rather tan 12K yds., I might have fared better. Comments are appreciated.

I had map contacts on during this exercise, but my range and bearing for both tankers (the slow and faster one) we accurate. I simply had more time to set up for the slower target, plus I used the speed announced by the radarman for the slower target and I used the 3 minute speed rule for the faster one.

bowfin · 08-13-10, 11:39 PM

Just wanted to add my two cents worth...
When plotting the target radar range and bearing onto the map. If you use radar "true bearing" instead of "relative bearing" with the ruler tool is already in true bearing. Just means you can look at radar bearing and then jump to map and simply draw a line from sub icon to target.
No need to work out sub heading and use protractor to work out difference of target bearing from sub heading. So much simpler and time saving.
I used to do it like JC's tutorial. Was a great moment when I realized I could do it with true bearing no matter what sub heading.

I'm goin' down · 08-13-10, 11:59 PM

Are you saying the bearing displayed on the ceiling of the A scope is the true bearing? That appears to be what you mean to say.

If that is the true bearing, I wonder why the periscope view is referred to as the relative bearing. It seems that the periscope view is more accurate (i.e. true) than the true bearing you describe.

If I understand you, it is a good shortcut unless Nisgeis says you are crazy, or something like that.

08-12-10, 01:57 AM	#136
Roger Dodger Sonar Guy Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 384 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 0	Missing Buttons I finally got around to trying out the TDC Targeting (Part 2). Using the RADAR for plotting course and track of target works well, and I am able to get a pretty good estimate (even though I was tracking a fishing fleet). When I went to the TBT/Periscope screen and pulled out the tools, I noticed that the ATTACK/DATA TOOL does not have the 'Send to TDC' or the 'Clock' buttons - only smooth metal where they should be. The Stadimeter (Range), AOB and Speed buttons are present and working, but not the other two. No one else has complained here, so I must be unique. What happened to the buttons, and how do I get them back? I tried disabling the TDC Mod, then enabled the Submarine School training mods and the TDC Mod, but still no buttons. Installed Mods: TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2 RSRDC_TMO_V502 RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1 Convoy Routes TMO+RSRD Radar and TDC Training Missions v1.02 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v1.02 __________________

08-12-10, 09:39 PM	#143
Roger Dodger Sonar Guy Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 384 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 0	Crossing my Bow Near the end of Part 2, text on the screen says: "We are almost ready to shoot. The target is at 1661 yds. He will cross your bow at 88 degrees (his course 338 - your course 250 degrees = 88 degrees)" I'll assume that courses 338 and 250 are 'True' courses, so the 88 degrees must also be a 'True' bearing (as opposed to 'Relative' bearing). Which dial will read out the 88 degree bearing? And is that the point where I fire my torpedoes? __________________

08-13-10, 10:30 PM	#148
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	nisgeis and channing Uoading of screenshots turned into a disaster. I quit trying. Here is an update. I figured out the 3D TDC target course setting protocol. In determining a target's course I do not know why one would fiddle with the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC by dragging the white triangle to match its plotted course. That dial appears useless when initially inputting a target's course. The dial that initially affects the target's course is the target dial on the upper RIGHT of the 3D TDC. That is what worked for me. First, I open the stadimeter to the Aob dial. Second, I open the 3D TDC and set the target's course via the target dial on the upper RIGHT. Third, I open the the stadimeter's Aob dial and send the target's course to the TDC. Fourth, I open the 3D TDC to verify it has accepted the data re the course change. If the course change has been accepted, the target dial on the upper left on the 3D TDC snaps to the new course. If this procedure is correct, then I have solved the target course problem I was having. I used this procedure to sink the slow target in the the third training mission. Here are some other questions and comments. First, in Channing's tutorial he notes that after plotting 3 or 4 entries one has determined the target's preliminary range, course and speed. Actually, you one has not determined preliminary speed. One has determined preliminary range and course only. I think the comment re speed is a mistake. Second, what is the point of turning the radar off. Two times in the tutorial, the reader is instructed to turn radar off. His initial instructions notes that turning of radar is an important step. I do not understand why or the importance of doing so. It this instruction necessary or important? Third, and this is a major question. The tutorial instructs the reader to set speed via the 3 minute rule. This is a pain the ass, and using the stop watch in combo with range/bearing readings is not precise because you are taking a range and bearing, starting the watch, switching screens to plot, switiiching screens to send the range, and at the end of three minutes, doing it again. Question No. 3: Why can't the reader rely on the watch button on the stadimeter speed dial, take two range and bearing readings, and rely the radarman's calculation of speed? I believe URGE or Hitman noted that this was an alternative. I would save time and needless plotting. Once the TDC is in operation, one can verify if the course is accurate on the Attack Map. If it appears inaccurate, additional range and bearing readings will assist in providing correct information. If range is the only issue, one can adjust it via the range dial on the stadimeter. I note that I missed six shots at the second tanker in the Mission 3 tutorial (the one approaching from 70 degrees starboard), but not by much. The tanker approached fairly quickly, and I was compelled to turn my boat 90 degrees to starboard to have a better (but not great) angle for an attack. I measured the tanker's speed at 14.25 kts. which was probably too slow. Its course was 220 degrees which appeared fairly accurate. The shots missed aft of the tanker by a few hundred yds. The problem here was the closing speed of the tanker, as it was passing my boat before I had a completed the set up. If I had spotted it at 20K yds. rather tan 12K yds., I might have fared better. Comments are appreciated. I had map contacts on during this exercise, but my range and bearing for both tankers (the slow and faster one) we accurate. I simply had more time to set up for the slower target, plus I used the speed announced by the radarman for the slower target and I used the 3 minute speed rule for the faster one. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 08-14-10 at 01:24 AM. Reason: corrected typos

08-13-10, 11:59 PM	#150
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	bowfin Are you saying the bearing displayed on the ceiling of the A scope is the true bearing? That appears to be what you mean to say. If that is the true bearing, I wonder why the periscope view is referred to as the relative bearing. It seems that the periscope view is more accurate (i.e. true) than the true bearing you describe. If I understand you, it is a good shortcut unless Nisgeis says you are crazy, or something like that.

08-12-10, 02:08 AM	#137
NorthBeach Torpedoman Join Date: May 2008 Location: San Francisco Posts: 112 Downloads: 216 Uploads: 0	Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

08-12-10, 03:04 PM	#141
John Channing Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 1998 Posts: 1,846 Downloads: 163 Uploads: 5	Use the "L" key. (For those of you who remember "Janes Apache-Longbow", I can still hear the instructor's voice...) JCC

08-13-10, 01:06 AM	#144
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	How do I get my screen shot to be full size? Every size I try is smaller that the space on the screen. I am using image shack. I make the screen shot with Widows Vista Paint.

08-13-10, 11:39 PM	#149
bowfin Seaman Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 32 Downloads: 95 Uploads: 0	Just wanted to add my two cents worth... When plotting the target radar range and bearing onto the map. If you use radar "true bearing" instead of "relative bearing" with the ruler tool is already in true bearing. Just means you can look at radar bearing and then jump to map and simply draw a line from sub icon to target. No need to work out sub heading and use protractor to work out difference of target bearing from sub heading. So much simpler and time saving. I used to do it like JC's tutorial. Was a great moment when I realized I could do it with true bearing no matter what sub heading.