[WIP] Historical Guns Specs

[gap]

Originally Posted by V13dweller

Are the German and Italian destroyers armed with an active sonar? because I created a test mission, and the Soldati and type 1934 destroyers don't seem to follow the British U-Class subs once they are underwater.

Yes, as far as I can see from their sns files, they do.

Nonetheless AI sonars are set to stop working above 8 mt below the sea level. It is possible that:

- the bone where the sonar is attached on the ship model is misplaced (above the 8 mt depth, thus rendering the sensor unoperative);
- some other setting in sensors_AI.sim needs to be adjusted;
- enemy subs are lacking a setting/property needed for making them detectable underwater;
- friendly ship's AI is flawed/unable to follow submarine target.

In the latter case there is little I can do without TDW's help.

In order to avoid confusion I prefer facing a problem at a time, but I will take a mental note of the issue, and I will look further into it at the right moment. Please keep this mission in a safe place for future testing.

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

Well, testing completed..

Wolodya my friend,

we are about to make an important discovery here that will greatly improve the realism of surface to surface and surface to air engagements. Your tests seem to confirm my hypothesis that the two tolerance factors are combined with the 'Max error angle' parameter in Sim.cfg for affecting guns' accuracy.

If that was true, it would mean that we can individually adjust horizontal and vertical dispersion for each gun: in other words, no more millimetrically accurate AI guns or, on the other hand, totally dumb gunners on our boat. It makes me wonder why no one looked in these parameters before, since there were many complaints on this subject

Originally Posted by volodya61

much time has been spent on re-editing .sim-files.. for testing was necessary to increase the ammo amount.. (usually I'm using Ammo by Raven2012)

Yes, I know that mod. Realistic ammo loadouts are in my todo list too.

Now my remarks to your individual reports:

• decrease own AA guns error angle: should make AI controlled guns on your sub as good as the ones aboard ships (Max error angle=4.5, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=4.5, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  

  Originally Posted by volodya61

  the crew still doesn't know how to shoot

  That's weird. The stock setting for both Trav and Elev tolerance of sub AA guns is 15 deg. I have reduced the above figures to only 4.5 (that's 30% of the original). It doesn't add up, unless Max error angle in Sim.cfg is affecting our guns as well as AI guns. If that was true, we would have an error angle of 4.5 x 4.5 = 20.25 deg: still too much for our poor gunners
  
  
  
• decrease even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships excellent shooter (Max error angle=1, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  

  Originally Posted by volodya61

  a bit better but I'm still the best

  only a bit better? These settings should have converted both your and AI ship's gunners into snipers
  
  P.S. are you a sniper?
  
  
  
• increase AI AA guns error angle: should make the gunners aboard ships as bad as your ones (Max error angle=15, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=15, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  

  Originally Posted by volodya61

  now the AI-ship's gunners force down planes less frequently and not as fast as before

  
  what about your crew? Did they get totally crazy, or they were just as bad/good as in stock?
  
  

  Originally Posted by volodya61

  maybe we should slightly reduce the error angle? perhaps 10 would be enough

  Do you mean that a 'Max error angle' of 15deg makes AI guns too bad? from your first comment (...force down planes less frequently... etc) it seemed to me that they were just a bit worse than in stock game, and for my understanding of the file settings, they should be just as bad as vanilla sub gunners
  
  
  
• increase even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships horrible shooters (Max error angle=30, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=30, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  

  Originally Posted by volodya61

  it was just a joke

  Not exactly. We learn from our mistakes, but I think I had warned you that some of my settings were a bit excessive

Originally Posted by volodya61

Okay, I think no need to change the AA settings for subs, only for AI-ships..

So are you okay with the vanilla settings as far as far as U-boat guns are concerned? Personally, I would expect a trained AI gunner to be at least as good as the captain-player if not better. If you think that our gunners are already good enough, I can try making the aiming more difficult for the player. What do you think?

In any case, before I start finetuning the settings, I need to know wether the aiming of AI ships/sub's guns is affected by crew experience, weather, ambien light, etc. or not. Can you make some tests on this subject?

Originally Posted by volodya61

am I understanding correctly that these files (20mm_C30.sim etc., 37mmM.sim etc.) are the sub's armament files and this one (Vierling.sim) is an AI-ship's armament file?

Yes, you are correct: all the guns contained in the Objects\Guns folder are selectable sub upgrades, with the one exception of the AI_Deck_Gun_GE88mm gun, which is fitted aboard AI subs. The Vierlig is the quad mount version of the C/38 20mm Flak. The same gun is also available as ship armaments in guns_radars_01

[Rongel]

Originally Posted by gap

I'm slowly moving my first setps into learning the tricks of TDW's GR2 editor. As far as I know, doing what you are suggesting should be possible.
Applying your idea would require just to edit the Id's of torpedo GR2 files to be cloned. If we manage to do it, what remains to be done is remapping the new Id's in sim/zon files, and updating them with the wanted settings. Boring task yes, but immune from complications

I fiddled with TDW's editor some time ago, so I could try to mess with the torpedoes this weekend. I started to read again the "Wolves Without Teeth: German Torpedo Crisis" thesis which is really interesting to read. And a very good source material! So it might be that I continue doing that instead! Maybe it's better to first get the data right.

Concerning the AI guns and submarine crew: I think also that the AI ships seem to be too good, they shoot airplanes down pretty easily. And I don't know what was the historical percentage that destroyers and battleships hit enemy ships, right now they are also very good at it, almost every shell hits their target. And one last point, remember that the sub crew gains experience, gunner at the start of the game doesn't seem to hit anything, but after few campaigns, there is a significant change in it. There's my thoughts of the day!

[gap]

Originally Posted by Rongel

I fiddled with TDW's editor some time ago, so I could try to mess with the torpedoes this weekend. I started to read again the "Wolves Without Teeth: German Torpedo Crisis" thesis which is really interesting to read. And a very good source material! So it might be that I continue doing that instead! Maybe it's better to first get the data right.

If you got nothing else to do, both your plans for the next weekend seem equally goog to me.

Regarding your reading, yes indeed that David Wright, author of the essay, should be awarded with the Nobel Prize in videogaming
If I can give you a suggestion, for ease of access I would start arranging the information contained in it into a worksheet.

Originally Posted by Rongel

Concerning the AI guns and submarine crew: I think also that the AI ships seem to be too good, they shoot airplanes down pretty easily.

Okay, wait for me and Volodya to sabotage a bit their AA guns, and let's see what happens. I hope they won't become an easy pray for airplanes

Originally Posted by Rongel

And I don't know what was the historical percentage that destroyers and battleships hit enemy ships, right now they are also very good at it, almost every shell hits their target.

For what I can see, there are 2 different 'Max error angle' settings in Sim.cfg, one for AA guns, and one for surface cannons. Moreover, each gun got a Trav.tolerance and a Elev.tolerance parameter in guns_radars_01.sim. Once we fully understand their mechanism, we will be able to adjust whatever gun.

What is especially cool about the two tolerance factors is that, by playing with them, we can give each gun its characteristic dispersion values based on historical specs (some guns had unusal vertical and/or horizontal dispersion values compared to "average guns).

Originally Posted by Rongel

And one last point, remember that the sub crew gains experience, gunner at the start of the game doesn't seem to hit anything, but after few campaigns, there is a significant change in it. There's my thoughts of the day!

Thank you for reporting this piece of information. I was going to ask you about it!

By any chance, is there a way to set our crew's experience in custom mission? Does it work as for other units? And do you happen to know if AI-unit's guns are likewise affectet by crew ranking?

[volodya61]

I have some connection issues today, so I can't responding right away

All tests were on the sub with only one gunner on board. Maybe later I'll try to test a sub with several gunners. On the other hand we are on board the sub rather than on the destroyer..

Originally Posted by gap

That's weird. The stock setting for both Trav and Elev tolerance of sub AA guns is 15 deg. I have reduced the above figures to only 4.5 (that's 30% of the original). It doesn't add up, unless Max error angle in Sim.cfg is affecting our guns as well as AI guns. If that was true, we would have an error angle of 4.5 x 4.5 = 20.25 deg: still too much for our poor gunners

Originally Posted by gap

only a bit better? These settings should have converted both your and AI ship's gunners into snipers

For some reasons a gunner shoots often below or above the target and it doesn't look like a preemptive shots..
Although the accuracy of the shots in both tests was good but most shots off target

Originally Posted by gap

P.S. are you a sniper?

a bit

Originally Posted by gap

what about your crew? Did they get totally crazy, or they were just as bad/good as in stock?

as in stock

Originally Posted by gap

Do you mean that a 'Max error angle' of 15deg makes AI guns too bad? from your first comment (...force down planes less frequently... etc) it seemed to me that they were just a bit worse than in stock game, and for my understanding of the file settings, they should be just as bad as vanilla sub gunners

Maybe a language barrier to blame? I'm not always accurately can pick the right words
In these tests was the task force (6 DD's and 2 Dido) and they downed the planes too long, I think, in reality, they would have done it a bit faster..

Originally Posted by gap

Not exactly. We learn from our mistakes, but I think I had warned you that some of my settings were a bit excessive

Do you think that the "a bit" is a right word?

Originally Posted by gap

So are you okay with the vanilla settings as far as far as U-boat guns are concerned? Personally, I would expect a trained AI gunner to be at least as good as the captain-player if not better. If you think that our gunners are already good enough, I can try making the aiming more difficult for the player. What do you think?

I think that we are on board the sub and our main weapon is the torpedoes
On the other hand, I am using Sober's bad weather deck gun for inaccuracy during the storm

Originally Posted by gap

In any case, before I start finetuning the settings, I need to know wether the aiming of AI ships/sub's guns is affected by crew experience, weather, ambien light, etc. or not. Can you make some tests on this subject?

OK.. I'll do it

Originally Posted by gap

The Vierlig is the quad mount version of the C/38 20mm Flak

Now I see

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

All tests were on the sub with only one gunner on board. Maybe later I'll try to test a sub with several gunners. On the other hand we are on board the sub rather than on the destroyer..

Take onboard as many Flaks as you need, I am more concerned about their accuracy than about their number

Originally Posted by volodya61

For some reasons a gunner shoots often below or above the target and it doesn't look like a preemptive shots..
Although the accuracy of the shots in both tests was good but most shots off target

I think this behaviour is due to poor AI programming: the error angle is applied randomly whereas we would expect AI gunners to progressively correct their aim. Unfortunately fixing it, is outside our reach.
By the way: as suggested by Rongel, the aim accuracy of our gunner is greatly affected by crew experience. Did you made your tests in campaign or in a custom mission? What did you set as crew experience for your sub?

Originally Posted by volodya61

a bit

you crazy russians!
Several weeks ago I found by a country mate of you, where he is firing a 40 mm automatic gun
If you like, in his youtube channel you can preview his whole arsenal in action

Originally Posted by volodya61

as in stock

This seems to confirm the fact that guns aboard the player's sub are not affected by settings in Sim.cfg
By the way, the intent of this mod was to decrease AI guns' accuracy to the level of stock sub guns, keeping the latter unchanged.

Originally Posted by volodya61

Maybe a language barrier to blame? I'm not always accurately can pick the right words
In these tests was the task force (6 DD's and 2 Dido) and they downed the planes too long, I think, in reality, they would have done it a bit faster..

You have been perfectly clear: a max error angle of 15 deg is excessive in game and it would be, after all, highly unlikely in real life
On the other hand, I am curious to know the crew ranking of that taskforce, if you can provide this information...

Originally Posted by volodya61

Do you think that the "a bit" is a right word?

"a bit" is a relative therm: what is a bit for me is a lot for you. But what actually happened during that test? Were sub Flaks also affected by "my bit" or just ships's guns?

Originally Posted by volodya61

I think that we are on board the sub and our main weapon is the torpedoes
On the other hand, I am using Sober's bad weather deck gun for inaccuracy during the storm

That is sure. Tell me to jam those guns and I will!
In any case I think that the aim of our crew should be comparable to the one of the player: a bit worse than ours at their lowest ranking, and slightly better than ours when they gain the maximum experience.

Originally Posted by volodya61

OK.. I'll do it

Thank you,
I appreciate your valuable help, but take your time on it: I don't want to burden you, and I know you have another important work is waiting for you

In any case, I plan to join you in carrying the extra tests.

From now on, if possible, they should be carried out in custom missions. Moreover, in our reports, we should take notes of:

approximate time of the day (dawn/sunset, morning/afternoon, noon, or night);
moon visibility and moonphase (for night missions)
wind speed, cloud coverage, precipitations, fog
ships included in the mission and their ranking
sub crew ranking

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

Did you made your tests in campaign or in a custom mission? What did you set as crew experience for your sub?

In the campaign.. I can't make the missions.. I'm too lazy and still have not figured out the ME2..
I have no idea what kind of experience in my crew.. third campaign.. probably veterans..

Originally Posted by gap

you crazy russians!

Yep.. We are..

Originally Posted by gap

On the other hand, I am curious to know the crew ranking of that taskforce, if you can provide this information...

I can't.. but I think Trevally can..
These were taskforces around Malta.. May-June 41

Originally Posted by gap

"a bit" is a relative therm: what is a bit for me is a lot for you. But what actually happened during that test? Were sub Flaks also affected by "my bit" or just ships's guns?

Everything in this life is relative
Don't remember exactly.. I'll retest it..

Originally Posted by gap

In any case I think that the aim of our crew should be comparable to the one of the player: a bit worse than ours at their lowest ranking, and slightly better than ours when they gain the maximum experience.

Agree..

Originally Posted by gap

Thank you,
I appreciate your valuable help, but take your time on it: I don't want to burden you, and I know you have another important work is waiting for you

Don't thank.. You do a lot more for all of us..

Originally Posted by gap

From now on, if possible, they should be carried out in custom missions. Moreover, in our reports, we should take notes of:

Maybe you can make a few different custom missions for this.. it would have helped a lot..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

Maybe you can make a few different custom missions for this.. it would have helped a lot..

Okay, I got your point: I will create a set of custom missions especially designed for our tests. Tomorrow. Now I am going to watch a good movie

[volodya61]

Ok.. I just thought that a month of such correspondence and my English will be much better..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

Ok.. I just thought that a month of such correspondence and my English will be much better..

I hope you take my english with a pinch of salt

[volodya61]

I noticed that the best communication is obtained with people for whom English is not their native language.. We are not so much focusing on the possible errors because we didn't notice them..

EDIT: and we use mostly simple words..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

I noticed that the best communication is obtained with people for whom English is not their native language.. We are not so much focusing on the possible errors because we didn't notice them..

EDIT: and we use mostly simple words..

yes and not. Sometimes I feel I express myself better with native speakers... maybe because I do my best not to be accused to spoil their language

[volodya61]

did some new tests.. results differ from the previous ones.. you were right.. we need some custom missions to check.. if the initial conditions are identical it will be easier.. in a dynamic campaign is difficult to properly evaluate the result.. different aircrafts, different crew experiences, different weather conditions etc..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

did some new tests.. results differ from the previous ones.. you were right.. we need some custom missions to check.. if the initial conditions are identical it will be easier.. in a dynamic campaign is difficult to properly evaluate the result.. different aircrafts, different crew experiences, different weather conditions etc..

As expected: there are so many variables in game that if we don't fix some of them, understanding what's going on with our change won't be easy, if possible at all

[volodya61]

so, for beginning we need two different missions (I think so) -

1. the sub with two/three AA-guns on board and several different enemy planes

2. the enemy task-force and several different our and friendly planes

weather conditions, time of day etc. we can change in the mission's settings window before mission start..