[WIP] Historical Guns Specs

[Rongel]

A small update on torpedo duds. I did some tests and found out that the controls are quite broken. First issue is that lowering the torpedo speeds to reduce duds isn't working. The other is that date doesn't affect anything. I put the dud rate to 100% and between 1938-1943 and got the same effect in 1944 when the value was 0 %... Well at least that reduces the work amount for the mod!

Has anyone else got different results???

[gap]

Okay, 'AA guns error angle test mod' available here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?855alb6j9vdk8cn

This mods contains 4 submods (enable one at a time). It doesn't include the changes introduced so far with armaments & equipments patch, but they are compatible with each other. The use of A&E patch v0.2 together with this last one, is optional.

The submods are:

1. decrease own AA guns error angle: should make AI controlled guns on your sub as good as the ones aboard ships (Max error angle=4.5, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=4.5, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
   
   
2. decrease even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships excellent shooter (Max error angle=1, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
   
   
3. increase AI AA guns error angle: should make the gunners aboard ships as bad as your ones (Max error angle=15, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=15, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
   
   
4. increase even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships horrible shooters (Max error angle=30, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=30, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)

The above names and my explainations of them are assuming that the Max error angle parameter in sim.cfg is applied only to ships mounted guns.
If this interpetation is not correct, then only the 2nd submod will be balanced; the 2nd submod would make our gunners a bit more accurate, but still worse that the ones aboard ships, and the 3rd and 4th, though decreasing the accuracy of ship mounted AA guns, would make our own guns inpossible to handle: I wouldn't be surprised if weird things happened

That's enough right now. Keep me informed on the results guys!

Originally Posted by Rongel

A small update on torpedo duds. I did some tests and found out that the controls are quite broken. First issue is that lowering the torpedo speeds to reduce duds isn't working. The other is that date doesn't affect anything. I put the dud rate to 100% and between 1938-1943 and got the same effect in 1944 when the value was 0 %...

Is this with TDW's patch enabled? Is it possible that when fixing the general feature, he disabled speed and date controllers?

Originally Posted by Rongel

Well at least that reduces the work amount for the mod!

Your positive attitude doesn't convice me. Not in this case
To me is inacceptable having, during late war, the same dud rates as in 1939

Anyway not everything is lost: while we wait for TDW to hopefully come back and have a look at the issue, you () can collect as much historical info as you can and prepare several versions of the mod with different dud rates for different periods. At worse, we will fix those dud torps the hard way, by enabling a different submod every six months

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, 'AA guns error angle test mod available here:
.....
That's enough right now. Keep me informed on the results guys!

Thanks Gap!

I'll test it a bit later today..
Tried to raise two snorkel at once (snorkel by the Beast and snorkel by TDW) about four hours.. unsuccessful.. now go to sleep..
I'll try your tests after wake up..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

Thanks Gap!

I'll test it a bit later today..
Tried to raise two snorkel at once (snorkel by the Beast and snorkel by TDW) about four hours.. unsuccessful.. now go to sleep..
I'll try your tests after wake up..

I wish you have a good and refreshing rest, lieutenant Volodya. You need to be fit for the gunnery trials that are waiting for you tomorrow.

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

..waiting for you tomorrow.

not tomorrow.. already today.. 06:00 AM here, in native area..

[V13dweller]

I have finished the stock game before, and I am doing to Open Horizons 2 campaign now. I will go back to the stock games Mare Nostrum if you need more test results.
I do find shooting down aircraft to be quite interesting, I'd call myself 'Good' at it, my choice of AA gun is the 'Improved Flak 30', from the Beasts upgrade unlock.
If you don't know what the Improved Flak 30 is, It's a flak 30 with the aiming sight of the twin flak.
I will get to testing your mod straight away.

[V13dweller]

I just found out, that the Queen Elizabeth Battleships secondary guns don't have muzzle flash.

[gap]

Originally Posted by V13dweller

I have finished the stock game before, and I am doing to Open Horizons 2 campaign now. I will go back to the stock games Mare Nostrum if you need more test results.

I would be grateful to you if you checked the test mods I've released yesterday. I need to know if you can confirm the descriptions I've made for each submod. In other words you should tell me if the AA guns are doing what they are supposed to, according to my changed settings and to my (coarse) interpretation of them. Please, don't exitate to ask if you need for any clarification.

Originally Posted by V13dweller

I do find shooting down aircraft to be quite interesting, I'd call myself 'Good' at it...

Perfect

at the moment I am especially interested in comparing AI's ability to shoot airplanes with both sub Flaks (let your crew manning them) and ship mounted AA guns. You can do it in campaign (there shouldn't be problems in enabling any of the test mods during middle patrol) or, even better, in an expressely designed mission.
Nonetheless, you can try as well to man the flaks yourself, and see if the changes done are affecting human difficulty too.
At some point, when we will make a better idea of the parameters involved, I would like our gunners to be at least as good as you, or even a bit better than you at doing their job, and ship gunners should be lesser infallible.

Originally Posted by V13dweller

my choice of AA gun is the 'Improved Flak 30', from the Beasts upgrade unlock. If you don't know what the Improved Flak 30 is, It's a flak 30 with the aiming sight of the twin flak.
I will get to testing your mod straight away.

I know this gun, though after looking at its characteristics in guns_radars_01.sim, and after doing some research on the web, I have to say that it is probably fictive. I think I will give it the specs of a single mount Flak C/38 all the way, unless advised to the contrary

Originally Posted by V13dweller

I just found out, that the Queen Elizabeth Battleships secondary guns don't have muzzle flash.

You are right, after looking at its settings, I can confirm that that gun too misses its flash effect... dunno how, I had totally overlooked it.
I will rectify my inattention with the next patch. Thanks for reporting it.

[V13dweller]

And your mod is not compatible with Realistic ammo for flak and deck guns http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1706

Do you think you could make it compatible?
I like to carry more then the stock ammo, because the basic amount is unacceptable.

[Rongel]

Originally Posted by gap

Is this with TDW's patch enabled? Is it possible that when fixing the general feature, he disabled speed and date controllers?



Your positive attitude doesn't convice me. Not in this case
To me is inacceptable having, during late war, the same dud rates as in 1939

Anyway not everything is lost: while we wait for TDW to hopefully come back and have a look at the issue, you () can collect as much historical info as you can and prepare several versions of the mod with different dud rates for different periods. At worse, we will fix those dud torps the hard way, by enabling a different submod every six months

Yep, I have the latest patch running. It is possible that it has something to do with it, it could be that without the patch, imported ships would still react correctly to dud-rates, torpedo speeds and rates. But I can live without the low-speed reduction (even if that was historically accurate).

Positive attitude is everything, all is not lost indeed! I haven't read that much yet about the different torpedoes, but the game has 11 different torpedoes modelled. And we have now mods that make them available to use in the right time. So can't we just make the new torpedoes more reliable and stop using the old faulty ones? Different dud values work for different torpedoes.

Other option is to try to make a new torpedo. We could make another TypeI torpedo that comes available in '43 that is much more reliable than the early war version. In this case we need to edit the torpedos GR2-file and add some stuff there, is that now possible with TDW's tool?

[gap]

Originally Posted by Rongel

Yep, I have the latest patch running. It is possible that it has something to do with it, it could be that without the patch, imported ships would still react correctly to dud-rates, torpedo speeds and rates. But I can live without the low-speed reduction (even if that was historically accurate).

Positive attitude is everything, all is not lost indeed!

No, of course it is not! Forgive me for my moment of despair

My opinion is still that date-depending dud rates, and speed-depending dud chances are too cool features for simply giving them up. Nonetheless, atm there isn't much we can do for them but hoping that TDW will revise his patch one day. In the emanwhile, I see, you got devised some good workarounds!

Originally Posted by Rongel

I haven't read that much yet about the different torpedoes, but the game has 11 different torpedoes modelled. And we have now mods that make them available to use in the right time. So can't we just make the new torpedoes more reliable and stop using the old faulty ones? Different dud values work for different torpedoes.

I don't know... I have not in-depth information on this topic, but I think that more reliable versions of the standard TI torpedo were produced before the advent of the TIII model or FaT/LuT variants. In other words, while it was inproved, TI was still the main choice, whereas newer torpedo types were available in limitated stocks.

IIRC, this fact is modelled in game, with the most recent torpedo types being not always available during normal refittings, not to mention that, when refitting at sea, the player is assigned totally random torpedo loadouts.

All in all, I believe that apllying the method yo have suggested would either limit too much our choice, or force us to use flawed torpedoes even when (historically) dud chances were not so high

If any other approach failed, this workaround would nonetheless be an acceptable compromise.

Originally Posted by Rongel

Other option is to try to make a new torpedo. We could make another TypeI torpedo that comes available in '43 that is much more reliable than the early war version.

THIS is actually a good idea!
we can clone existing torpedoes and, by setting wisely availability dates, slowly replace the dud ones with their improved versions... I could I have been so blind not to see it before?

Originally Posted by Rongel

In this case we need to edit the torpedos GR2-file and add some stuff there, is that now possible with TDW's tool?

I'm slowly moving my first setps into learning the tricks of TDW's GR2 editor. As far as I know, doing what you are suggesting should be possible.
Applying your idea would require just to edit the Id's of torpedo GR2 files to be cloned. If we manage to do it, what remains to be done is remapping the new Id's in sim/zon files, and updating them with the wanted settings. Boring task yes, but immune from complications

[V13dweller]

I have also noticed, that Depth charges have been reaching me deeper than their 91 meter limit, and their sonar's passive and active have been reaching me at over 160 meters under, I personally don't believe that to be possible.
And I am in silent running but when they go directly above me, their passive sonar keeps detecting me. Any idea's?
Can you wait until they have circled you so long they need to refuel?

[gap]

Originally Posted by V13dweller

I have also noticed, that Depth charges have been reaching me deeper than their 91 meter limit...

I didn't look into depth charges yet. I will investigate

Originally Posted by V13dweller

and their sonar's passive and active have been reaching me at over 160 meters under, I personally don't believe that to be possible.
And I am in silent running but when they go directly above me, their passive sonar keeps detecting me. Any idea's?
Can you wait until they have circled you so long they need to refuel?

This is another aspect that I still haven't studied in depth.
For sure there's a 'Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation' parameter in Sim.cfg. Stock value was 5 (=20% attenuation), but it was making AI too dumb. IRAI reduces it to 1.7 (1=no signal attenuation).
Also note that, unless I am very much mistaken, there's no way to change the thermal layer depth. It varies randomly.

P.S: have you started tests with AA guuns?

After a second thought, I suggest you and Volodya to carry on your tests using a custom mission. AI aiming accuracy might be affected by seastate, light, fog, crew training, etc. Appreciating all of these factors in campaign would be difficult if not impossible.

[volodya61]

Well, testing completed..
much time has been spent on re-editing .sim-files.. for testing was necessary to increase the ammo amount.. (usually I'm using Ammo by Raven2012)

Originally Posted by gap

decrease own AA guns error angle: should make AI controlled guns on your sub as good as the ones aboard ships (Max error angle=4.5, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=4.5, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)

the crew still doesn't know how to shoot

Originally Posted by gap

decrease even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships excellent shooter (Max error angle=1, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)

a bit better but I'm still the best

Originally Posted by gap

increase AI AA guns error angle: should make the gunners aboard ships as bad as your ones (Max error angle=15, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=15, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)

now the AI-ship's gunners force down planes less frequently and not as fast as before
maybe we should slightly reduce the error angle? perhaps 10 would be enough

Originally Posted by gap

increase even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships horrible shooters (Max error angle=30, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=30, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)

it was just a joke


Okay, I think no need to change the AA settings for subs, only for AI-ships..
am I understanding correctly that these files (20mm_C30.sim etc., 37mmM.sim etc.) are the sub's armament files and this one (Vierling.sim) is an AI-ship's armament file?

[V13dweller]

Are the German and Italian destroyers armed with an active sonar? because I created a test mission, and the Soldati and type 1934 destroyers don't seem to follow the British U-Class subs once they are underwater.