You know I've ben whining about passive detection range until I read this

[Hitman]

This is not unrealistic. Contrary to a lot of people's beliefs, a kilo is NOT a super-submarine. Unless it's armed with cruise missiles, most diesel electric submarines are constrained simply by their kinematic ability to get in range of it's target. They can maneuver some, but they really aren't capable of chasing down a target like a nuke might. They have to wait for a target to come to them, and then make the correct decisions that will place them in a position to make an attack. If the target zigs at the wrong time, the attack is off and all the kilo can do is wait for another target to come alone. This is why their second most important attribute is not just their silence, but that they're relatively inexpensive. In order to be effective you need a lot of them because it's unlikely the enemy would even encounter just a small number.

I know, I know, and I apply those tactics. But I still think that a Kilo should be a bit more silent in LWAMI, I'm not pretending to be able to outmaneuvre targets or overtake them at speeds of 10+ knots, but I think that moving along at 4-5 knots should be safer than it is now. Of course, accoustic conditions can change things dramatically, but in general I have played also a lot with the 688i and I can hear Kilos moving at those 5 knots easier that I would think at first glance. Tests I have conducted with LWAMI seem to indicate however that with all stop and lying in the seabed, a 688 can go right over your conning tower and not hear you :hmm: , so it's probably a matter of rescaling a bit the curve of noise increasing with speed. But when you read those news telling how chinese diesel subs seem to get closer to exercising NATO task forces than they could first think, you have to wonder.....

Um, you can get within attack range of skimmers at 5 knots without being detected passively... in LWAMI for sure, probably stock too, even in good acoustic conditions. The non-improved Kilo might get detected in LWAMI, but those are pretty old boats and 5 knots is on the fast end of "slow".

That depends of what you consider a reasonable attack range. I have run several tests to determine the endurance of my torpedoes at different speeds, and the maximum distance I would ever try to attack a nuke is 5.5 NM (Around 10.000 metres). You can attack with the SSN-15 from greater distance, but for that you need a good solution (Specially the distance to target) and you obviously can hardly get that if you are limited to move that slow.

Being lucky and having an inspired day, I have been able to get as close as 6000 metres to an enemy submarine without being detected, but that's at a mere 2 knots.

Never mind.

EDITED TO ADD:

A good example of what I'm saying is a cold war scenario I did set up some time ago, using LWAMI 3.08. A Kilo 877 versus a 688 (Non improved) in the Barents Sea, representing the russian is out there watching for enemy submarines trying to track exiting boomers from Poljarny. I did set random start boxes and fixed a reasonable area to be able to hunt around. But no matter how slow I moved, the 688 always shot at me first, without me even having been able to hear it! The first notice I have, is a TIW report. Yeah, it's a 877, but moving around at 4 knots it should be more silent, I think, specially for a non-improved 688 (Which has not the improved towed array of the 688i IIRC).