Do you always report a convoy?

[SteamWake]

You are not 'expected' to report but I usually try to report the contacts, its not always possible and sometimes as you have found out they will task you with disrupting the convoy. Which again is not always possible.

As the others have said pinging for range while the escorts are on point is a bad idea. Its kind of like ringing the dinner bell and shouting "Here I am come and get me !" When the whole idea is to not let them know your there till stuff starts blowing up. Next time pop up your scope for a few moments and use that to get your range. Just dont forget to put it back down again :rotfl: . Get some 'situational awarness' and try to use the passive sonar to track your targets. It will give you rough estimates to range (actually too good but thats another topic).

[tomoose]

IRL, yes, as a skipper you'd be expected to report whenever possible any significant enemy movement as that provides the Intelligence gurus one more piece of the huge puzzle and could influence operational or even strategic decisions.

In the game, I don't think there's anything gained by not reporting. As you say it might depend on the response you get back on the radio but you don't get any response from HQ if you don't report.

[tater]

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

[SteamWake]

Hey Tater...

I reported one last night only after sinking 5 of the ships and the rest managed to slip away while evading.

Does that count :rotfl: I mean its not like they dident know I was there. Hell one DD stuck behind at the original contact point for hours looking for me.

[tater]

Even after an attack, they'd likely not do so, certainly not while any escorts or ships with radios might be around. Why? Because then they would be known to still be alive.

You attack, the escorts dump a few DCs in a desultory attack. They go back and report to their bosses that they sunk you. Heck, knowing the IJN, they report sinking TWO subs! You are now safe.

If you surface and radio, then they know they didn't sink you (or think there is a 3d sub ) and either come back, or they call in air support in some areas. IJN doctrine regarding air was not all that bad. really. They'd indeed try and saturate an area and limit how far you could escape (since submerged you radius is quite small).

Anyway, the USN was not "chatty" which is a large part of the reason so few US subs were sunk. MANY German and Japanese subs were sunk because of their constant use of radio communications, it wasn't just codebreaking, plain ole DF would have done them in, too.

[Orion2012]

Depends. If I have no chance of intercepting and I make visual contact at close range and feel that I'm gonna get the crap DC'd out of me, then I fire off a report directly after ordering for emergency dive. I figure by that point, if he's lookin at me who cares what I radio.

If I have a chance to attack him, I don't dare send it until he is steaming away filling with water.


On the subject of reporting the convoy, is there not a chance of allied air support??

[tomoose]

Point taken; it would be a judgement call by the captain. e.g. A skipper sees an obvious enemy invasion task force heading in a specific direction, I think he'd call it in, I know I would knowing that DF on my moving sub would be problematic at best and the bad guys would not be able to pinpoint my location or my direction of travel.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by tater

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

I disagree. The wolf packs frequently contacted each other to coordinate the attacks according to 'Silent Victory'. Also, many boats would report the contact after their attack was over and they were clear. Something you can't do in SH4! There were orders to report first and attack second issued, which you mentioned, when the boats were used as a scouting line during invasions. This was amended to shoot first after some juicy targets were missed. Again, according to Clay Blaire's 'Silent Victory'.

Buddahaid

[tater]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

I disagree. The wolf packs frequently contacted each other to coordinate the attacks according to 'Silent Victory'. Also, many boats would report the contact after their attack was over and they were clear. Something you can't do in SH4! There were orders to report first and attack second issued, which you mentioned, when the boats were used as a scouting line during invasions. This was amended to shoot first after some juicy targets were missed. Again, according to Clay Blaire's 'Silent Victory'.

Buddahaid

Yes, specific orders as you point out, but they were rescinded as you say.

I didn't say that our late war packs never used the radio, but rather that it was hard to convince the skippers to do so (they eventually got better at it). When they started, however, it was like pulling teeth to get them to be as chatty as they needed to be for effective pack tactics. Most boats would err on the side of silence at the beginning of wolf packs, decreasing their effectiveness.

But again, short ranged radios, and packs, something impossible in SH4 anyway.

As for after attacks were over, yeah, they might well make a radio report, but "in the clear" is important. That doesn't mean just a few thousand yards away, it means safe from retribution. Maybe the next night if it was a daylight attack, or perhaps the same night if they could run free and fast on the surface to get away from the scene. The fear would be that air units would appear and force them to remain submerged, limiting their ability to get away. If you keep a sub down long enough, it eventually has to come up, and even IJN doctrine recognized this.

So I stand by the fact that US subs (barring orders like picket boats tasked to do intel (and attack)) would shoot first, and only report if shooting was no option, or they had already attacked. Pre-attack radio contact as the only radio paradigm in game is making some tiny fraction of a percent of fleet boat comms the ONLY method in game.

As for "judgement calls" by the skipper, captains do what they were trained to do. Timing matters (within the war).

Early in the war, skippers even attacked from 100ft down since that was the doctrine at the start of the war. Those (largely older) skippers were replaced with more aggressive guys, and things changed. Silence did not change til later in the war, though. Sure, they'd likely report a TF or convoy early on if they could not attack, but again, when safe to do so. IJN DF gear was actually good, but more importantly, USN doctrine assumed it was far better than it actually was (just as they assumed that air was more capable than it really was in spotting subs).

Late in the war, they were more likely to use the radio, particularly the short range sets in packs.

The current engine seems designed around the KM's overuse of the radio to call home, then central direction from the mainland.

tater

[Rockin Robbins]

In Edward Beach and Eugene Fluckey's books, the skippers in a wolf pack tended to physically rendezvous and confer in person rather than use the radio for comparing notes and strategy sessions. They hated to use the radio according to these two authors.

[Buddahaid]

Seems we're really in general agreement. I thought you were indicated it was rarely or never done. Too bad SH4 does not allow contact reports after contact has been broken. I never do it because of that "feature".

Buddahaid