If I were Sonalyst I would make a DW expansion

[MBot]

I have played most platforms again in the last days, and while I think they are all cool, not each one provides the same amount of good gameplay. Here is my take on what platforms offer the most fun for me (from a pure SP point of view):

SSNs
The nuke subs are still the best for me. The core gameplay of the series, building situation awareness with limited input, still works best with the subs. They offer many different missions and a wealth of different tactics to achiev your goals. Also they offer some pretty challenging threats. The only thing I wished was improved for them was fire control. DW is great with for everything about sensors, but the shooting part looks a little bit lacking sometimes.

The Kilo
The Kilo comes next to me. In many ways it is simmilar as the SSNs, perhaps in too many. The defining part of being an SS, having a diesel-electrical propulsions, doesn't really play a large role in DW. Most scenarios in DW are too small in scale to make a difference, while the larger ones often don't work perfectly because of small time compression. Because of this the Kilo sometimes feels like it is just a crappy SSN. Still I think that a western diesel, combining the characteristics of a non-nuke boat with more competitive sensors and weapons might add some good gameplay to DW.

The Perry
I like the OHP because it has many detailed stations and is quite complex. Unfortunately it is less compelex on a second look, at least to me. The AAW and ASuW aspects of DW are a bit underdeveloped, so the main task of the OHP is ASW. In the end I think the gameplay in that regard is a little limited. It all boils down to controling your helicopter like in a strategy game, with managing the buoys being the most fun part. Developing a firing solution is easy with cross-bearings of two buoys and killing the target is a simple matter of telling your helo "drop torp here". The ASW equipment of the ship itselfe are a bit underwhelming. The torpedos, the only ASW weapons of the ship itselfe, are so inneffective against subs that they are rarely used. The towed array looks very complex for a start, but in the end is only used to get an initial bearing of a possible contact, which is the starting point of using your helo. I never do TMA in the OHP, using your helo and multiple buoys is always more effective. The active sonar doesn't offer that many possibilities and requires few finesses to use. I think a surface ASW unit was a great idea to add to the mix, but the OHP might have been a bit an unfortunate choice, because it relies so much on the helo (which can be used as seperate platform). I think there would still be a lot of potential for a plattform with more specific ASW equimpent, like wire guided heavy weight torpedos, ASROCs, ASW mortars, VDS or more fleshed out active sonar.

The Orion
Being a flight sim enthusiast I realy like the Orion. It is a great unit to play every now and then, but in itselfe it provides few gameplay and gets repetive quite quick. Every sub kill is basicaly the same. I think the pinpoint navigation of the nav map takes out a lot of the challange of that platform. Perhaps this is even the way it is today, but I think previously the navigation in the open water was a real problem. You would use radio-navigation to find your sono buoys and drop smoke buoys to mark positions. Navigation would be done from the cockpit using instruments and our eyes rather than a top down view on the nav map. From a pilots point of view this sounds like a lot of fun, but might be out of the scope of DW...
Another gameplay dampener for the Orion is that you are virtualy unoposed (not taking into account SAMs form subs in MP). You hunt your prey from a total safe position.

The Seahawk
This is the platform I play least. While I like the helo as a unit, I think it offers little good gameplay. Like the Orion it quickly gets repetive, also you can basicaly play it from the OHP anyway. Also it has the same problem as the Orion, you are never in real danger with it.


As you can see, I regard DW still as primary a subsim. I like the other units very much and they are great fun in between. But for themselfe they offer not enough to fill out a game. The subs on the other hand do, as we saw in 688(I) H/K and Sub Command. I think a addon (or successor) to DW should improve the subs even more, bascically redo the ones we have and add a modern diesel. More subs are not realy needed from a gameplay point of view. There also would be room for a ship that has a more direct approach to ASW than the OHP. Not necessary a better ship at ASW (absolutely speaking), but one that offers more interaction to the player. For the MPAs and helos, I don't think that much gameplay could be gained by adding more of those.

What is your view on that?

[Molon Labe]

I think your assessment is about right, MBot. Oh, and I checked out Digital Fight Simulator... the modular concept they're working with is what I wish SCS had done with DW. It looks very promising.

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by CapitanPiluso

I think sim market is very small, and then companies decide to invest in other genres ( sports and fps ) which give instant action to the player and instant incomes to them.

A company think that the market is too small for a sim or expansion and release the simulator with poor graphics but great gameplay.

the public and other people don´t like poor graphics and decide not buy the game .except hardcore simmers.

Also dangerous waters with a full globe scale and a dynamic campaign could make the game better.


:hmm:

[XabbaRus]

I beta tested DW and got into it but lost interest after SCS support dried up.

The AI wasn't much of an advance, the graphics I could live with as I could make my own ships.

The AI like I have mentioned was the big crunch as it was too predictable, even the autocrew who cheated when doing TMA instead of building it up slowly which I didn't think would be too hard to simulate.

Adding new platforms is really just a case of same game different cover.

This is what needs to happen.

Level one: A high fidelity single platform tactical sim like DW but updated, eg better sound physics, better AI - eg like what Sid is trying to develop.

Advantages : EVerything we have but better
Disadvantages : Doesn't exist yet

Level two: A theatre wide simulator in the mould of Fleet Command or Harpoon which can tie in with the above mentioned level one either real time multi player or single mission. Scenarios played single player could have tactical missions that could be generated and loaded into the level one tactical sim or uploaded to a server to be grabbed and played out. Results could be resent to the server and then loaded into this and the mission plays out based on that. In a real time MP environment the theatre commander can assign goals to units.

Advantages : Brings a good depth to the simulation experience.
Disadvantages : Would require good coordination and long missions in MP.

This kind of exists with Global Conflict Blue. In an abstract way it would be good if a land battle could be influenced by what happens on the sea.



Advantages : Would allow

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

This is what needs to happen.

Level one: A high fidelity single platform tactical sim like DW but updated, eg better sound physics, better AI - eg like what Sid is trying to develop.

Advantages : EVerything we have but better
Disadvantages : Doesn't exist yet

Level two: A theatre wide simulator in the mould of Fleet Command or Harpoon which can tie in with the above mentioned level one either real time multi player or single mission. Scenarios played single player could have tactical missions that could be generated and loaded into the level one tactical sim or uploaded to a server to be grabbed and played out. Results could be resent to the server and then loaded into this and the mission plays out based on that. In a real time MP environment the theatre commander can assign goals to units.

Advantages : Brings a good depth to the simulation experience.
Disadvantages : Would require good coordination and long missions in MP.

I don't think "level one" and "level two" can be separated--at least with a brand new sim. If you wanted to "fix" DW then that sort of path makes sense, because you have to work with a NavalSimEngine that was designed to study specific scenarios with cumstom databases and doctrines. But if you're starting from scratch, then you can build a sim meant for consumers from the ground up. Once you decide to do that, even a single platform sim should be taking place in a theatre-wide battlespace from its inception.

I think the DFS model should be adopted by future naval sim designers. Create an engine (physics engine, campaign engine, multiplayer architecture) that can accept modules. Then create study-sim modules that plug playable platforms into the engine. Release a new module every few years or so.

[Dr.Sid]

Actually that exactly is what I plan to do except in smaller steps. Subsim with few subs first, the add more and more. I have global scope in mind. At least scenarios of scale of Fleet command should be possible, and even some massive multiplayer server could be built one day to allow indeed global conflicts.

For DW there are serious limitations to this, because it does not simulate round Earth so the mission area is limited to area so small it does not play role (and it is fixed in radar and other sensors where it plays role even at short range).

[CapitanPiluso]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I think your assessment is about right, MBot. Oh, and I checked out Digital Fight Simulator... the modular concept they're working with is what I wish SCS had done with DW. It looks very promising.

I agree. Blackshark looks very promising indeed.
I wonder how will I take that big amazing cockipt full of buttons off the ground

[AirHippo]

I wonder if perhaps, as well as solving the problems MBot has identified - most of which I admit ignorance of, since I've never bothered with anything but the subs, and mostly play the various Akulas - an interesting addition from the point of view of DW fans would be to balance the playable units; in other words, to add the ability to play as former Warsaw Pact surface vessels and aircraft. All right, it's probably a bit gimmicky, but I think players might find the prospect of being able to tinker with an Udaloy, a Tu-142 and a Ka-27 enticing. At present, one problem with DW is it's a little US-centric, which the addition of matching platforms for the East might help remove. Well, nearly matching; I am aware that the OHP is an FFG and the Udaloy a DDG, but you get my drift

[Tarrasque]

Hell, I'd be happy if they realised that the USA is not the sole nation in NATO. Give us some playable Trafalgars or some Type 22 or 23 frigates.

[AirHippo]

Also be nice, though I'm a little wary of adding Royal Navy units because that would necessitate Royal Navy voices. Given that the standard of the voice-acting for the Russian crew can hardly be called stellar, it wouldn't at all surprise me if we wound up with Royal Navy boats crewed entirely by blokes who talk like Prince Charles and can be heard sipping tea (or perhaps Pimm's) to add "authenticity". Of course, if they actually went to the trouble of having properly-done voice acting it could be an eye-opener for many; the sound of a broad scouser bellowing, "fookhin' SHOVE those fookhin' PLANES ya wankheh!" would doubtless be a revelation never to be forgotten!

[Robsoie]

I always dream of a Fleet Command-kind of game featuring nearly everything modern (i am not very interested in WW2 naval warfare) floating on the sea or roaming over and under it, in which unlike the Fleet Command you would not only play the global commander "point&click" but could get to be inside of -every- platforms with every positions simulated (like in 688/SC/DW).

And instead of having only separated/standalone missions you would have a huge dynamic campaign a la "Red Storm Rising", but instead of a small part of the world it could take place on the full world map with even some kind of diplomacy/4X concept threw into it.

So basically it would never ever play the same twice or the same as someone else.

Unfortunately i doubt this will ever happen one day due to the complexity involved and how much money it would cost to develop, but i would really spend money on buying this even if it was twice the usual price.

[Dr.Sid]

That's why it will be done for free.

[Werewolf]

What is the "reinforce alert" addon????? :hmm:

[OneShot]

An illegal Addon with some "new" playable units ... tho not truly new as in the sense with all new interfaces and whatnot ... just the old stuff with a new 3d model and new db entries and as far as I understand one or two modified interfaces.

[Werewolf]

@Oneshot

Ah I see.......so being an "illegal" addon I reckon that noone knows where to find it then