TMO vs RFB

Rockin Robbins · 08-19-08, 05:55 AM

Actually it's pretty amazing. The guiding principles of RFB and TMO are completely opposed.

Trigger Maru Overhauled
TMO came from Ducimus' migration from SH3 and his observation that challenges were few in his new game. So, for his own use, he developed Trigger Maru to increase the difficulty of the game. He did NOT stick with objective reality when he did so. ASW capabilities of Japanese escorts were ratcheted up to frankly unrealistic levels. They can find you and depth charge you with deadly accuracy without pinging sometimes. They are VERY aggressive. If you run into an elite crew on a Japanese escort you are dead unless you kill him. For that reason, there is only one elite crew in Trigger Maru: Bungo Pete.

The nav map was nerfed to reflect more accurately the info that would really be developed by the plotting crew for the captain. Ship silhouettes are gone, replaced by a position dot, because the radar did not tell you what kind of ship you had detected. Friend/foe/neutral colors are gone for the same reasons. Boats no longer have velocity vector tails that tell you without any analysis on your part what their course is. And the "x" for the projected impact point in the attack screen is gone. Although done for the purpose of increasing difficulty, these changes had an effect that possibly wasn't intended. Running SH4 with map updates on is now more realistic than leaving map updates off, especially if your sub has radar.

And what the heck is realism anyway? Tater observed that in Trigger Maru, unrealistic enemy behavior results in extremely realistic player behavior. You are properly operating in fear for your life. Wow! How authentic! Therefore you do not take stupid chances. You cannot just duck below the thermal layer, put it on silent running and go eat lunch. You will be dead when you return. When being depth charged, you MUST evade. They will kill you. Be afraid. Very afraid. It's wonderful

RFB
Real Fleet Boat was originated from the standpoint of reading patrol reports and attempting to reproduce the results reflected therein with accuracy, who cares about gameplay glitter. After war statistics said that only one of 20 boats were sunk. Therefore depth charges were nerfed to the point that you had a 95% chance of living through your career. Enemy AI was left alone. Attack map and nav map were left alone. Based on cruise reports from WWII, the deck gun was altered so its firing rate reflected the rates from actual combat use, not a test stand on terra firma. People had lots of fun fighting over that one, especially land lubber artillery experts. Then the effectiveness of deck gun shells was nerfed. If cruise reports said it took 85 shells to sink a small freighter, that's what RFB takes. You'll spend the greater part of an hour to sink one and you'll be just waiting to be plastered by a plane all that time. Welcome to reality.

The last version of RFB I played was Beery's last one. I switched to TMO during the uncertainty time and after SH4 went to patch 1.4 and RFB was no longer compatible enough. So I can't comment on later versions. I do know that with Beery's version I never had to go deep. I could stay at periscope depth and watch myself being depth charged. If they hit me it wasn't fatal. I just charged through the screen into the merchies and wrecked havoc. It didn't matter if I were detected or not.

As soon as I saw a ship or detected it on radar, I just went to my nav map. If it was green it was friendly, red it was enemy. The silhouette told me the general ship type so I knew speed capability, whether it was merchant or warship. I could immediately plot the course from the velocity vector without any investigation on my own part.

I'll leave it there as RFB has a lot of changes under Swdw's leadership and I'm in no position to comment on them. Much may have changed. I'll have to let one of the RFB team describe their mod better.

My own progression
Although I agreed with Beery's addiction to reality and faithfulness to it, I came to the realization that the final result wasn't realistic. I was Rambo, invulnerable enough not to fear, with superhuman shooting ability because of my stock nav plot. I was ready to change to a Trigger Maru I was prepared to hate because of its lack of realism.

My first cruise was brutal. I had Superman in those escorts charging me through the fog without pinging me first and dropping deadly accurate depth charges. I hopped right into the TM forum and blasted Ducimus, who set me straight with the simple observation of "who said TM was realistic?" In otherwords "get with the program." He also pointed out that in my account of what I did I had written a textbook on proper evasion tactics. And I realized suddenly that I had learned more in one test mission from hell than all the previous months I had played Silent Hunter 4. Suddenly I was not frustrated that I hadn't sunk the merchies. I was overjoyed that I had survived. And the thought hit me: THAT is real realism.

In its later incarnations, TMO has become more and more a realism mod. Ducimus has been influenced by the evil RFB crew (helped them even) and incorporated many realistic details into TMO: evil enemy aircraft that can depth charge you at periscope depth (also part of RFB if I recall correctly). Properly nerfed deck gun so you realize why they no longer appear on any submarines. They were a lousy idea that never worked, unless you count foolishly courting death as a good idea.

I think in the end, these two mods, originated for very different goals have converged to the point that it would be difficult even to say which is more realistic than the other. About the only thing you might say now is that TMO is definitely more challenging. And what is YOUR definition of reality.

Is it reality of enemy behavior and reality of results? Then RFB is your mod.

Is is reality found in YOUR behavior and attitude? Is fear part of reality in war that you want to experience? Are you willing to have your career without the assurance that you will probably survive all the way to the end of the war? Look at TMO then.

Disclaimer
I'm not an RFB expert any more. I have simplified the changes that TMO has made in the game (and RFB too) to convey my own subjective impressions of both. I can be wrong sometimes, and this comparison is very subjective. Even if I'm right, you might come to a different observation that is equally right. Especially the RFB guys should come and present their case better than I can. If Ducimus were here he could do the same. I'm not the best to do this but I'm what you got.:rotfl:

08-19-08, 05:55 AM	#13
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Actually it's pretty amazing. The guiding principles of RFB and TMO are completely opposed. Trigger Maru Overhauled TMO came from Ducimus' migration from SH3 and his observation that challenges were few in his new game. So, for his own use, he developed Trigger Maru to increase the difficulty of the game. He did NOT stick with objective reality when he did so. ASW capabilities of Japanese escorts were ratcheted up to frankly unrealistic levels. They can find you and depth charge you with deadly accuracy without pinging sometimes. They are VERY aggressive. If you run into an elite crew on a Japanese escort you are dead unless you kill him. For that reason, there is only one elite crew in Trigger Maru: Bungo Pete. The nav map was nerfed to reflect more accurately the info that would really be developed by the plotting crew for the captain. Ship silhouettes are gone, replaced by a position dot, because the radar did not tell you what kind of ship you had detected. Friend/foe/neutral colors are gone for the same reasons. Boats no longer have velocity vector tails that tell you without any analysis on your part what their course is. And the "x" for the projected impact point in the attack screen is gone. Although done for the purpose of increasing difficulty, these changes had an effect that possibly wasn't intended. Running SH4 with map updates on is now more realistic than leaving map updates off, especially if your sub has radar. And what the heck is realism anyway? Tater observed that in Trigger Maru, unrealistic enemy behavior results in extremely realistic player behavior. You are properly operating in fear for your life. Wow! How authentic! Therefore you do not take stupid chances. You cannot just duck below the thermal layer, put it on silent running and go eat lunch. You will be dead when you return. When being depth charged, you MUST evade. They will kill you. Be afraid. Very afraid. It's wonderful RFB Real Fleet Boat was originated from the standpoint of reading patrol reports and attempting to reproduce the results reflected therein with accuracy, who cares about gameplay glitter. After war statistics said that only one of 20 boats were sunk. Therefore depth charges were nerfed to the point that you had a 95% chance of living through your career. Enemy AI was left alone. Attack map and nav map were left alone. Based on cruise reports from WWII, the deck gun was altered so its firing rate reflected the rates from actual combat use, not a test stand on terra firma. People had lots of fun fighting over that one, especially land lubber artillery experts. Then the effectiveness of deck gun shells was nerfed. If cruise reports said it took 85 shells to sink a small freighter, that's what RFB takes. You'll spend the greater part of an hour to sink one and you'll be just waiting to be plastered by a plane all that time. Welcome to reality. The last version of RFB I played was Beery's last one. I switched to TMO during the uncertainty time and after SH4 went to patch 1.4 and RFB was no longer compatible enough. So I can't comment on later versions. I do know that with Beery's version I never had to go deep. I could stay at periscope depth and watch myself being depth charged. If they hit me it wasn't fatal. I just charged through the screen into the merchies and wrecked havoc. It didn't matter if I were detected or not. As soon as I saw a ship or detected it on radar, I just went to my nav map. If it was green it was friendly, red it was enemy. The silhouette told me the general ship type so I knew speed capability, whether it was merchant or warship. I could immediately plot the course from the velocity vector without any investigation on my own part. I'll leave it there as RFB has a lot of changes under Swdw's leadership and I'm in no position to comment on them. Much may have changed. I'll have to let one of the RFB team describe their mod better. My own progression Although I agreed with Beery's addiction to reality and faithfulness to it, I came to the realization that the final result wasn't realistic. I was Rambo, invulnerable enough not to fear, with superhuman shooting ability because of my stock nav plot. I was ready to change to a Trigger Maru I was prepared to hate because of its lack of realism. My first cruise was brutal. I had Superman in those escorts charging me through the fog without pinging me first and dropping deadly accurate depth charges. I hopped right into the TM forum and blasted Ducimus, who set me straight with the simple observation of "who said TM was realistic?" In otherwords "get with the program." He also pointed out that in my account of what I did I had written a textbook on proper evasion tactics. And I realized suddenly that I had learned more in one test mission from hell than all the previous months I had played Silent Hunter 4. Suddenly I was not frustrated that I hadn't sunk the merchies. I was overjoyed that I had survived. And the thought hit me: THAT is real realism. In its later incarnations, TMO has become more and more a realism mod. Ducimus has been influenced by the evil RFB crew (helped them even) and incorporated many realistic details into TMO: evil enemy aircraft that can depth charge you at periscope depth (also part of RFB if I recall correctly). Properly nerfed deck gun so you realize why they no longer appear on any submarines. They were a lousy idea that never worked, unless you count foolishly courting death as a good idea. I think in the end, these two mods, originated for very different goals have converged to the point that it would be difficult even to say which is more realistic than the other. About the only thing you might say now is that TMO is definitely more challenging. And what is YOUR definition of reality. Is it reality of enemy behavior and reality of results? Then RFB is your mod. Is is reality found in YOUR behavior and attitude? Is fear part of reality in war that you want to experience? Are you willing to have your career without the assurance that you will probably survive all the way to the end of the war? Look at TMO then. Disclaimer I'm not an RFB expert any more. I have simplified the changes that TMO has made in the game (and RFB too) to convey my own subjective impressions of both. I can be wrong sometimes, and this comparison is very subjective. Even if I'm right, you might come to a different observation that is equally right. Especially the RFB guys should come and present their case better than I can. If Ducimus were here he could do the same. I'm not the best to do this but I'm what you got.:rotfl: __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 08-19-08 at 07:36 AM.