Hunt the Kaiser's Cruisers

08-13-08, 11:04 PM

I think that Doveton Sturdee has been badly treated by history and when I watched this doc (it showed here in Canada earlier this year), it did nothing to address that. Many of the perceptions and initial source material for Coronel and the Falklands comes from Churchill and he was in full CYA damage control mode to disguise how his micromanagement of Admiralty operations (as during the hunt for Goeben) contributed to the disaster. He then took full credit for the Falklands victory though and his antipathy to Sturdee is solidly in the public record.

One could argue that Sir Doveton gave the RN one of it's finest victories ever, destroying 80% of von Spee's force and his supply tail with trifling losses. He expended ammunition rather than lives, fought the battle exactly the way that Jacky Fisher envisioned Battlecruisers to be most effective and left his subordinates unrestricted by excessive signalling. Considering the adoration of David Beatty for the Dogger Bank and the opening phases of Jutland, Sturdee's victory is a model of machine age surface combat, one that he gets very little credit for in my opinion.
Good Hunting

TarJak · 08-14-08, 01:55 AM

So having seen this doco is it any good?

I've seen a few WWI docos screened recently and some have been very lacking in factual information and have either skimmed over or completely ignored some of the salient facts relating to the subject. Does this doco do that or are there clear biases in the commentary?

AntEater · 08-14-08, 02:44 AM

Actually its german made and was shown here about a year ago.
The acted scenes were shot on the Cruiser Aurora in St.Petersburg.
Pretty average if you ask me, but nice that somebody covered that topic.

TarJak · 08-14-08, 05:12 AM

Thanks I'll thake a look anyway as it's a period of interest to me. Hope it isn't too light on though. I don't like dry doco's but I also hate "entertainment first, history second" approaches far more.

Mush Martin · 08-14-08, 05:31 AM

I havent seen it, but it occurs to me from what I know of the
details, there were no bad admirals involved on either side.
Nor poor captains I dont think.

Further though I dont feel History has been unkind to Sturdee, he
handed them a trememendous victory.

My Heart goes out to Poor Craddock whos case always leaves my
feeling very sympathetic for a fine Officer and Gentlemen overrun by
circumstance politics and duty and sealed to a fate of doom that
he had to recognize, for all the dignity it must have taken, history
at times tends to only see the loss and the sinkings not the man.
I have little doubt that Craddock with equivalent strength and agility
couldve given very good account of himself even if none of his
crews had won the queens battle practice cup. His choices of tactics
tried all seem pretty sound but his ships didnt and never would have
had the legs to accomplish what he knew he had to achieve to survive.

TarJak · 08-14-08, 07:57 AM

Well watched the first episode. 'Twas a bit light on detail but not badly put together as far as the recreations go. Some interesting old WWI footage and photos.

Epsiode one focussed on the escape of the Emden's landing party lead by the XO, that got stranded temporarily on the Cocos (Keeling) Is after their ship got sunk by HMAS Sydney.

Their escape in a leaky Schooner to what was then the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and their rendezvous with a German freighter which took them to Yemen and the journey northwards to Turkey was interesting but I would have preferred to see a bit more about the engagement with the Sydney and the Emden's earlier exploits in the Indian Ocean. These were treated largely as precursors to the main story about the escape and trip to Turkey.

Overall not bad but less naval than I would have liked. I hope the second one about the Dresden is a little more nautical.

bookworm_020 · 08-17-08, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

Well wathced the first episode. 'Twas a bit light on detail but not badly puyt together as far as the recreations go. Some interesting old WWI footage and photos.

Epsiode one focussed on the escape of the Emden's landing party lead by the XO, that got stranded temporarily on the Cocos (Keeling) Is after their ship got sunk by HMAS Sydney.

Their escape in a leaky Schooner to what was then the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and their rendezvous with a German freighter which took them to Yemen and the journey northwards to Turkey was interesting but I would have preferred to see a bit more about the engagement with the Sydney and the Emden's earlier exploits in the Indian Ocean. These were treated largely as precursors to the main story about the escape and trip to Turkey.

Overall not bad but less naval than I would have liked. I hope the second one about the Dresden is a little more nautical.

I missed the show, but agree with you TarJack! The exploits of the Emden in the indian ocean is a great example of creative solutions in wartime, with a crew and captain up for the challenge!

The escape of the landing party is a good one, and does deserve to be told, but it was not the main story.

08-14-08, 02:44 AM	#3
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Actually its german made and was shown here about a year ago. The acted scenes were shot on the Cruiser Aurora in St.Petersburg. Pretty average if you ask me, but nice that somebody covered that topic. __________________

08-14-08, 05:31 AM	#5
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I havent seen it, but it occurs to me from what I know of the details, there were no bad admirals involved on either side. Nor poor captains I dont think. Further though I dont feel History has been unkind to Sturdee, he handed them a trememendous victory. My Heart goes out to Poor Craddock whos case always leaves my feeling very sympathetic for a fine Officer and Gentlemen overrun by circumstance politics and duty and sealed to a fate of doom that he had to recognize, for all the dignity it must have taken, history at times tends to only see the loss and the sinkings not the man. I have little doubt that Craddock with equivalent strength and agility couldve given very good account of himself even if none of his crews had won the queens battle practice cup. His choices of tactics tried all seem pretty sound but his ships didnt and never would have had the legs to accomplish what he knew he had to achieve to survive. __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

08-14-08, 07:57 AM	#6
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Well watched the first episode. 'Twas a bit light on detail but not badly put together as far as the recreations go. Some interesting old WWI footage and photos. Epsiode one focussed on the escape of the Emden's landing party lead by the XO, that got stranded temporarily on the Cocos (Keeling) Is after their ship got sunk by HMAS Sydney. Their escape in a leaky Schooner to what was then the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and their rendezvous with a German freighter which took them to Yemen and the journey northwards to Turkey was interesting but I would have preferred to see a bit more about the engagement with the Sydney and the Emden's earlier exploits in the Indian Ocean. These were treated largely as precursors to the main story about the escape and trip to Turkey. Overall not bad but less naval than I would have liked. I hope the second one about the Dresden is a little more nautical. Last edited by TarJak; 08-18-08 at 02:24 AM.

08-13-08, 11:04 PM	#1
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I think that Doveton Sturdee has been badly treated by history and when I watched this doc (it showed here in Canada earlier this year), it did nothing to address that. Many of the perceptions and initial source material for Coronel and the Falklands comes from Churchill and he was in full CYA damage control mode to disguise how his micromanagement of Admiralty operations (as during the hunt for Goeben) contributed to the disaster. He then took full credit for the Falklands victory though and his antipathy to Sturdee is solidly in the public record. One could argue that Sir Doveton gave the RN one of it's finest victories ever, destroying 80% of von Spee's force and his supply tail with trifling losses. He expended ammunition rather than lives, fought the battle exactly the way that Jacky Fisher envisioned Battlecruisers to be most effective and left his subordinates unrestricted by excessive signalling. Considering the adoration of David Beatty for the Dogger Bank and the opening phases of Jutland, Sturdee's victory is a model of machine age surface combat, one that he gets very little credit for in my opinion. Good Hunting

08-14-08, 01:55 AM	#2
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	So having seen this doco is it any good? I've seen a few WWI docos screened recently and some have been very lacking in factual information and have either skimmed over or completely ignored some of the salient facts relating to the subject. Does this doco do that or are there clear biases in the commentary?

08-14-08, 05:12 AM	#4
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Thanks I'll thake a look anyway as it's a period of interest to me. Hope it isn't too light on though. I don't like dry doco's but I also hate "entertainment first, history second" approaches far more.