Sinking of the u-85

[U-46 Commander]

Destroyers are meant to sink submarines, duh! Tell that to that crazy person!

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by U-46 Commander

Destroyers are meant to sink submarines, duh! Tell that to that crazy person!

that is correct. destroyers are meant to sink subs...

the problem which is presented is that a majority of the crew abandoned the sinking sub and were floating in the water calling for the destroyer to help them.

the skipper... viewing it as a ploy... continued his depth charge runs.

when a depth charge explodes within any fair distance of a swimming human being the shock wave passes through the water and then through the body essentially rupturing all of your internal organs. stomach, splean, kidneys, lungs, testicles you name it.

the lady is basically saying that the destroyer commander ordered a depth charge run on swimming sailors who were not only defenseless against the attacking destroyer at this point... but they were attempting to surrender... and as such should have been taken prisoner... not depth charged into oblivion.

what im about to say has the benifet of perfect hind sight...

If he had not commenced the depth charge run against the scuttled sub and floating survivors, there would be a 29 young German men who made it home to see their wives, kids, girlfriends and parents.

however, at the time, suspecting that the u-boat commander was attempting to make it look as if the boat had been scuttled in order to escape, and then later pick up his crew... he decided to continue the DC runs against the sub.

as the old saying goes

"War is hell"

i dont mean to seem coy when i say that, one man could stand on one side of the fence and say the roper's crew murdered thos germans.

another man could stand on the other side of the fence and say that the roper's actions were correct given the situation.

which side of the fence any of us stands on will not change history, perhaps one day if any of us find ourselves in such a terrible position as to decide whether or not to drop high explosives into the water next to a swimmer we can think back to this event and make a human decision.

just because war is horrible... doesnt mean we have to be. thats the way i look at it.

In no way can i speak for that commanding officer... of course none of us can... we werent there and didnt experience the confusion and tension which accompanies any military engagement.

its a sad story, and one worthy of discussion and recognition.

[Sailor Steve]

Well said.

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

If one frustrated maler hadn't got ambitions to conquer the world, the captain of the destroyer didn't need to drop the charges at all. It's as simply as that. And the young man would be at home in Germany, with their families, girlfriends etc. The purpose of a destroyer was to sink subs to prevent sinking more of your ships in the name of the maler. The captain probably only wanted to make sure the sub is sinking and was not only damaged, so calling this "murder" is only a small step away from considering those sailors "victims" of the war, which is a ridiculous tendency you can see for some time past.

[Penelope_Grey]

Well considering there were 29 men in the water, that is more than half the crew. VIIC's could only carry about 50 men including the commander... so seeing that amount of men they could have guaged that this was no trick. Losing nearly 30 men would be too much operating a type VII U-Boat on 20 men could be done in a pinch, but, well it would certainly be a LOT of work. Also if it was a ploy, that many men in the water is a lot of men to sacrifice to save your boat.

Basically, its a mixed bag, in the heat of the moment the captain of the Roper probably did not consider it as logically as I just did... such is the benefit of hindsight. However I do believe Clay Blair has a valid point in what he says about over-excitement... they lost out on a golden opportunity because they were so keen to sink the U-Boat.

Is what happened out their murder? No. But I do think this could quite easily be considered as being a crime only one level under murder. The men were killed but that was not the intention of the commander, at least I hope not. Is he a murderer? Not quite. But flipping close to it IMO.

Again... it all comes down to who won the war IMO.

Had the Germans won this would probably be considered a pretty hanous war crime (a sick irony too considering what the Nazis were up to in East Europe!)
But the Germans lost. Therefore, no war crime.


I take the stance though that since those men in the water 1) were so many, and 2) they were surrendering and caling for help... the captain was wrong to do what he did.

Yes, I appreciate that the U-Boat represented a threat to his ship and crew, definately. But in that shallow water and it being 1942 and the advancements in detection capability, don't tell me that destroyer could not have easily tracked that U-Boat.

So what if it was just 2 men in the water who got out of the sub, does that make the act less bad? If it was just a handful of men, then in my view captain is well within his rights to say I wasnt sure it was genuine or a trick, and that is legitimate given what GR posted above. But as numbers go up the line gets more fuzzy. By the time you get over 20 you have to sit and think, well hang on. 20 men are shoved out of the sub to trick the destroyer????

Basically... the captain here did wrong.

[Jimbuna]

Good points by both GR and PG....but even with the benefit of hindsight (something denied to everyone in the heat of battle and the need to make an instantaneous assessment).

Who would want to play God ?

We should all just hope and pray that these dark times are never allowed to repeat themselves.

[Subtype Zero]

We should all just hope and pray that these dark times are never allowed to repeat themselves.

Amen, Jimbuna!