This is Interesting

[Frame57]

I was skimming through my latest periodical from the Naval Submarine league and VADM Donnely CSF made this statement. "...The TB-29 is a very capable TA and, when it works, clearly detects contacts that are invisible to other acoustic sensors. But, with a 19% reliability, my CO's have an understanably hard time trusting that it will be there when they need it the most."

This floored me, and I wonder how in the world this TA could have made it to the boats with this kind of poor reliabilty rating. I would have an inbound TLAM heading right to the factory that makes these things.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Frame57

I was skimming through my latest periodical from the Naval Submarine league and VADM Donnely CSF made this statement. "...The TB-29 is a very capable TA and, when it works, clearly detects contacts that are invisible to other acoustic sensors. But, with a 19% reliability, my CO's have an understanably hard time trusting that it will be there when they need it the most."

This floored me, and I wonder how in the world this TA could have made it to the boats with this kind of poor reliabilty rating. I would have an inbound TLAM heading right to the factory that makes these things.

Anything that's exposed to the sea tends to break a lot. Salt causes corrosion of the metal mechanical parts. Also, lots of little sea creatures like to make their homes in things.

[Frame57]

I cannot deny the truth of that SQ. But our ancient TB-16 on Archerfish worked all the time. So I am not buying that for this particular TA. With that much of a poor performance, there has to be an OEM design flaw somewhere.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Frame57

I cannot deny the truth of that SQ. But our ancient TB-16 on Archerfish worked all the time. So I am not buying that for this particular TA. With that much of a poor performance, there has to be an OEM design flaw somewhere.

I don't doubt it. I dunno... my sense of things is that there's two things going on right now:

1) The US Navy is not nearly as skilled as it used to be. It has to do with a lot of things coming to a head. Everything from bad personel policy to budget issues.

2) There's a lot of lesser known problems with various other programs that result from issues similar to those in the LCS program. The LCS program was just the biggest goof up. The policies that led to the goof up were not isolated to the LCS program.

3) American scientists and engineers are not as good as they used to be. The public education system is basically a tragedy. The really sad thing is that we're actually dealing with a generational problem. Things have been so bad for so long that parents don't know what it really means to be educated anymore. So... when the parents are incompetant in science and math, any marginal improvement over them seems great to them, even as kids are falling behind in the big picture. As one who went to private school, sometimes I'm SHOCKED to find out what most public school children consider to be advanced material. Frankly, I don't think American universities should admit American children anymore. They're not capable of the work. Every child should graduate from highschool knowing calculus and linear algebra. That should just be a given. It's impossible right now, though. It's a total pipedream.

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.

[OneShot]

Just being the old curious me but what hole in particular are the European Navies in your opinion in ? Money (i.e. Equipment) or Personnel ?

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by OneShot

Just being the old curious me but what hole in particular are the European Navies in your opinion in ? Money (i.e. Equipment) or Personnel ?

Most probably money or moreso the cronic lack of money.
European navies are pretty advanced, thank you very much SeaQueen. On the other hand we don't have dreams of imperialism anymore. So the money goes to something more usefull. We have our own historic destiny to achieve, that is if our euro-politicians don't **** everything up in the process.

[jmr]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

American scientists and engineers are not as good as they used to be.

Naw, they just end up working for Google rather than Boeing.

But seriously, I'm not sure I agree with that statement as any accredited engineering or advanced science program is going to have high standards to begin with. I think the main problem lies in the number of scientists and engineers we're cranking out today versus the number we used to produce in prior generations. I think this shortage has more to due with poor math skills of "kids these days" rather than a lack of interest in the sciences. There was a piece that Bill Moyers did not too long ago discussing this topic where those entering college with a desire to go into the sciences end up defaulting to a liberal arts major because they quickly found out that their math skills weren't up to par. And this is not to denigrate the liberal arts in any way because there are individuals who are exceptionally bright and who willingly opt for those programs because that's where their talent and passion lays. Don’t chuckle, but we’ll always have a need for English majors.

It's the ones who major in them out of necessity because it’s the only thing they can major in are perhaps the ones who shouldn't be in college in the first place. But in the US we place an overwhelming emphasis on the almighty bachelor’s degree over the less glamorous technical trades; it's no wonder we have an abundance of college graduates with degrees that are practically useless in the working world. In the corporate world many employers won’t even consider you for hire or promotion unless you have a BA. A bachelor’s in basket weaving is better than no bachelor’s at all, it seems.

The public education system is basically a tragedy.

They’re a train wreck from the ground up, no doubt about it, and the only solution I can conjure up involves nuking them from orbit with the intention of starting all over again. Part of the problem stems from our cultural emphasis on being noisy, boisterous, popular, athletic, good looking, etc., while shunning actual learning. And heaven forbid if you’re a nerd who loves that sort of thing.

Every child should graduate from high school knowing calculus and linear algebra

Heh, a bit extreme don’t you think? I know a couple who hold advanced degrees in engineering that have children that have shown no proclivity for math. Such an extreme mandate really wouldn’t accomplish anything other than to increase the high school dropout rate. Proficiency in the basics is a must but not everyone is wired to be an engineer or scientist when they’re conceived.

[Frame57]

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by jmr

Naw, they just end up working for Google rather than Boeing.

That too. I'm thinking of sending 'em my resume, because being a defense contractor is just an exercise in frustration.

[Maiale]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.

What is a "European Military"? When will Americans understand that Europe is not set up like the US..? Europe isn't made up of different states but different NATIONS!! Every nation chooses it's own policy whether leaning more towards socialism or not...who more who less. But that's quite funny since Britain has been a democracy since before the US even existed. I don't see how a country like Britain is any more "socialist" than the US, to be honest.

And European militaries do a perfectly fine job...we don't invade countries at a whim like the US so all we really need is a defensive force, which they do a splendid job (when was the last time a European nation was invaded? 60 years?). I see someone has never been to Europe to actually see how it is...not how Tom Clancy thinks it is. I can see how the US got into trouble in Iraq because your way of thinking about the world is completely wrong..I would put down that as more worrying than actually not being able to do algebra and such. Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen. :rotfl:

p.s. Ban me, suspend me I don't care, but I as a European, find such hypocritical and untrue bigotry offensive. Shame on you....and we're supposed to be allies? puh...you make the US sound like imperialist despots.. Yeah...the US is working...right....that's why your economy is down the crapper...right.

[Dr.Sid]

Hey no ideology here please .. :hmm:

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Maiale

What is a "European Military"? When will Americans understand that Europe is not set up like the US..? Europe isn't made up of different states but different NATIONS!! Every nation chooses it's own policy whether leaning more towards socialism or not...who more who less. But that's quite funny since Britain has been a democracy since before the US even existed. I don't see how a country like Britain is any more "socialist" than the US, to be honest.

And European militaries do a perfectly fine job...we don't invade countries at a whim like the US so all we really need is a defensive force, which they do a splendid job (when was the last time a European nation was invaded? 60 years?). I see someone has never been to Europe to actually see how it is...not how Tom Clancy thinks it is. I can see how the US got into trouble in Iraq because your way of thinking about the world is completely wrong..I would put down that as more worrying than actually not being able to do algebra and such. Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen. :rotfl:

p.s. Ban me, suspend me I don't care, but I as a European, find such hypocritical and untrue bigotry offensive. Shame on you....and we're supposed to be allies? puh...you make the US sound like imperialist despots.. Yeah...the US is working...right....that's why your economy is down the crapper...right.

Settle down dude, there is nothing coming anywhere near bigotry in that post.

And seriously, not that it's what SQ said, but Europe is headed for a unified system. Ever heard of the EC and EU? :rotfl: You don't quite have a federal system yet, but it's not a stretch to call it a confederacy. You very well could have a federal system in a couple more decades.

And our economy is doing fine, thanks. Unemployment is low, GDP is holding steady. Having to deal with reduced growth due to higher input prices is hardly "down the crapper." "Shame on you" for getting swept away in whatever sensationalistic crap is being thrown at you by your media.

And if you think the reason we got into trouble in Iraq is because "our way of thinking" is different from yours, your lack of miltiary knowledge--or even awareness of public events--is astounding.

Just for future reference, if you have a disagreement about something someone said, you may want to think things through before going on a crazy rant where you make yourself look twice as bad. It's always fun to watch self-pwnage though, so thanks!

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Maiale

What is a "European Military"?

A European military is chronically underfunded, consists mostly of conscripts, lacks strategic lift capability, and is ultimately unable to even do the little bit of peacekeeping they claim to do because they have to rely on a superpower to transport them there.

Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen.

I think that the European governments spend too little on defense than is actually even in their own interests. The world would be more secure if Europeans made a commitment to even little things like having strategic lift capability or building real aircraft carriers. Interestingly, a lot of the NATO guys I've met agree with me on that point. It isn't about imperialism. It's about maintaining a prosperous, free world.