aw heck now that IS embarassing!!!!

[ddiplock]

Originally Posted by Quillan

First, depending on your depth, you may have been visually spotted. The Pacific is rather clear, and (especially if you're playing TMO with Ducimus' evil changed) you might be seen while submerged. Also, if the weather was bad you may have partially broached, with your scopes or even the top of the conning tower coming out of the water.

Second, it seems to me that anytime you get within roughly 500 yards of an escort they just "know" there's an enemy sub around and start pinging.

Well that's a total crapper. In the time i've had SH4, that was my FIRST encounter with a Japanese convoy, yeah it only had some 4 merchants in it, but it had destroyer escorts and such. I was really looking forward to scoring some tonnage and then diving deep, but, even diving deep below the thermal didn't help. I took that little S-class boat down to some 320ft before the hull started complaining really bad lol.

Kind of a shame, it goes to show that when it came to diving depths, the German Uboat was by far superior to their American counterparts. I mean, an American sub that can dive down to 300ft is only 90mtrs by german standards. German subs frequently went to depths of 200+ meters which is considerably deeper. But i remember someone telling me that German subs could dive deeper than their US counterparts because they were smaller and displaced less water or something. lol

Originally Posted by ddiplock

Well that's a total crapper. In the time i've had SH4, that was my FIRST encounter with a Japanese convoy, yeah it only had some 4 merchants in it, but it had destroyer escorts and such. I was really looking forward to scoring some tonnage and then diving deep, but, even diving deep below the thermal didn't help. I took that little S-class boat down to some 320ft before the hull started complaining really bad lol.

Kind of a shame, it goes to show that when it came to diving depths, the German Uboat was by far superior to their American counterparts. I mean, an American sub that can dive down to 300ft is only 90mtrs by german standards. German subs frequently went to depths of 200+ meters which is considerably deeper. But i remember someone telling me that German subs could dive deeper than their US counterparts because they were smaller and displaced less water or something. lol

The more water that is displaced, the greater the force of that water trying to retake its place. More water displaced, more force pushing back.

[LeeVanSpliff]

Originally Posted by Lynx2069

The more water that is displaced, the greater the force of that water trying to retake its place. More water displaced, more force pushing back.

Isn't pressure normally measured in force/area? I believe that it's linear with the depth - the force the water exercises on a given area at that depth.

Been a while since I had that stuff though, so not quite certain.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

Kind of a shame, it goes to show that when it came to diving depths, the German Uboat was by far superior to their American counterparts. I mean, an American sub that can dive down to 300ft is only 90mtrs by german standards. German subs frequently went to depths of 200+ meters which is considerably deeper. But i remember someone telling me that German subs could dive deeper than their US counterparts because they were smaller and displaced less water or something. lol

That is correct, as German subs were WWI designs, riveted together like sugar boats for the US. Their smaller size made them able to dive deeper. But greater diving depth alone doesn't make a sub superior. I would argue that speed at silent running is more important in avoiding attack. You can run the American Gato at 3 knots with very stealthy capability.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because the escort is pinging he knows where you are. Lots of times they ping and know nothing. Determine detection by their actions. If you are showing them a low aspect ratio they might ping away for minutes and never know you're there. As Douglas Adams would say, don't panic!

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

That is correct, as German subs were WWI designs, riveted together like sugar boats for the US. Their smaller size made them able to dive deeper.

:hmm:
Interesting
So if both same construction AND the sugar boats smaller than a VII then should be able to dive deeper than the type 7 based on your observations above ?

Must be more to it than that as S boats couldnt dive anywhere near as deep

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Reise

:hmm:
Interesting
So if both same construction AND the sugar boats smaller than a VII then should be able to dive deeper than the type 7 based on your observations above ?

Must be more to it than that as S boats couldnt dive anywhere near as deep

The Type VII hull was welded, not riveted. From the ONI documents put together on the U-570, captured by the British in August 1941, and inspected by the Americans in September:

The whole structure is welded construction with the exception of the superstructure side plating which is riveted, and portable plates in the top of the inner hull.

Further, the Americans and British were both surprised by the thickness of the pressure hull - 7/8" at the aft torpedo loading hatch and 3/4" at the forward torpedo loading hatch. US boats at the time were 1/2", I think.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570ONIReport.htm

Section II-B-2, page 17

And the same from the British examination:

Except for the cover plates over the engine room and the dished bulkheads at each end of the internal main ballast tanks where riveting is used, the pressure hull which is of circular section throughout, is welded. The greater part of the welding has the appearance of having been done in the shops.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm

'Short General Description', page 4

[-Pv-]

There is no invisibility cloak in the game. Doesn't matter if you are shallow or deep, you can be detected if you are using the wrong tactics. There is more to hiding than silent running and slow or stopped engines.

As others have mentioned, it's a frequent mistake by new commanders to assume any ping heard or change in enemy heading or speed is a detection and attack. You have to carefully observe your enemy to know if you've really been detected or not. Over-reacting can often lead to being detected when you were not. This is a misunderstood tension aspect to this fine game.
-Pv-

[Arclight]

Not sure, but didn't the Germans use higher grade steel for the pressure hulls as well?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Not sure, but didn't the Germans use higher grade steel for the pressure hulls as well?

Everyzing German ist higher-grade. Even ze Germanz.

[ddiplock]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

That is correct, as German subs were WWI designs, riveted together like sugar boats for the US. Their smaller size made them able to dive deeper. But greater diving depth alone doesn't make a sub superior. I would argue that speed at silent running is more important in avoiding attack. You can run the American Gato at 3 knots with very stealthy capability.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because the escort is pinging he knows where you are. Lots of times they ping and know nothing. Determine detection by their actions. If you are showing them a low aspect ratio they might ping away for minutes and never know you're there. As Douglas Adams would say, don't panic!

True comments about the pingng, but I know when they have locked onto you with their ASDIC because the speed of the pings increases. I'm hoping I was unlucky with this encounter with a convoy, i'll need to see how things go when I start again.

[Peto]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

...it goes to show that when it came to diving depths, the German Uboat was by far superior to their American counterparts. I mean, an American sub that can dive down to 300ft is only 90mtrs by german standards. German subs frequently went to depths of 200+ meters which is considerably deeper. But i remember someone telling me that German subs could dive deeper than their US counterparts because they were smaller and displaced less water or something. lol

Well, to add a little more to Sailor Steve's remarks (see above post), there was an added factor as to why the Germans went so deep in their subs. Basically--they had to. The Allied sonar changes, starting with Q apparatus and culminating in Type 147 Sword sonar gave the allies the ability to look down at much greater angles than the Japanese ever could. A U-Boat at 300 feet was in perfect hedge-hog range for a 147 equipped escort where a Japanese escort would lose contact with a boat that deep while still ~400-500 yards away.

The Americans did go deep to--usually by accident. the Tang went to 700 feet and survived. Test depth was 400 (Balao). The Puffer sweated out an attack for 37 hours at 500 feet (Gato Class--300' test depth). Even the old Pollock had it's 500+ foot moment, twice it's test depth!

In Peter Cremer's excellent book U-Boat Commander, he tells about how they took their boats down until the "frame members began to crack". And they still got the poop kicked out of them.

"Have To" was a great motivator for the depths gone to by the Germans in WWII...

Cheers!

Peto