US vs. German subs - which was better?

Sailor Steve · 07-07-08, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

2nd choice

Hey I just check wikipedia... it says 6 guns. :hmm:

True, but the P-51 had six Browning .50s, as opposed to eight .303s.

So, who had the better trench-digging shovels?

raymond6751 · 07-07-08, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

2nd choice

Hey I just check wikipedia... it says 6 guns. :hmm:

True, but the P-51 had six Browning .50s, as opposed to eight .303s.

So, who had the better trench-digging shovels?

The 50's had better range and better punch, so I vote P-51. Aarh...

ReallyDedPoet · 07-07-08, 10:24 AM

Nice discussion here lads

, let's get back on track though with the OP regarding subs. Maybe Dowly you could start something up with regards to planes in the FS Forum, sounds like there is interest

By the way, got IL46 the other day, man, could not get over the amount
of planes to fly

RDP

Phaedrus · 07-07-08, 11:40 AM

Just a few final notes:

- A P-51 is really an unfair comparison, designed in 1940 as opposed to 1933 for the 109, and 1934.
- Early model Spitfires had the eight .303's, later had two Hispano 20mm's and four .303's.
- The 109 is the most produced fighter design in history, so that counts for something.

Now, to return to the original discussion:

There are similar circumstances in the fleet boat / u-boat debate.
When trying to compare the boats, we would do well to remember that the VIIA was designed in 1934, with the VIIB following in 1936. While the IX boats were conceived in 1936.
The VIIC which shouldered the bulk of the load was first commissioned in 1940, but as has been mentioned, it was essentially a WW1 design.

The U.S. Gato class was quickly conceived and built, and entered production in 1940. The Balao class entered production in 1942.

U.S. design included internal torpedo storage and many forward tubes, but had terrible torpedoes and inferior fire control, particularly in when surfaced at night.
Pre-war U.S. training was also inferior compared to the German submariners, with just about half of U.S. commanders being relieved of command within the first 8 months of the war. I will allow that the comparison in training is not necessarily a useful comparison due to the vastly different missions of the two nation's sub forces (fleet engagement vs. blockade action).

Summary:

Each boat has it's own advantages and disadvantages, because they are really two different tools.
Yes, they are both submarines and they go under water, but just because my tin snips and pliers go into the same tool box, it doesn't make them the same tool.
Each is used for it's own designed purpose.

JU_88 · 07-07-08, 11:43 AM

Their both rubbish!!!

I prefer Royal Navy subs so there!

STEED · 07-07-08, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

Their both rubbish!!!

I prefer Royal Navy subs so there!

I like that.

Mush Martin · 07-07-08, 11:50 AM

as someone whos played both extensively
and someone who's made opening salvo's my overall strength
I totally prefer US boats over Uboats for many many reasons.

that said

As a dedicated subsimmer and student of the subject for life.
I will play any boat in any theatre that is current state of the art.
(how I ended up a uboat skipper!)

M

HunterICX · 07-07-08, 12:14 PM

comparing aircraft whent its about submarines

and...

Comparing a P51 versus a Spitfire...
you guys must be mad.

P51: Long range High altitude fighter
Spitfire: Interceptor

you cant compare as they where of a different fighter class,

if you would have a pool to compare the P51 with it would be-

P-51 , Hawker Tempest and the FW190D ''Dora''

but in general comparing aircraft to show who had the best is just impossible as everything had their advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages : use them well and there is a higher chance of victory for you
Disadvantages : get in a situation where your disadvantages will start to act up and you have a risk to be done for.

but in generals as for Aircraft and submarine alike,
the mix between Men and Machine is also very important.

HunterICX

Jimbuna · 07-07-08, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

Their both rubbish!!!

I prefer Royal Navy subs so there!

Same preference here...my favourite being the S class.

JU_88 · 07-07-08, 03:28 PM

I'll have a 'T' please Bob.

Shame the RN boats never saw the same scale of operational usage and success of their US and german cousins, but considering what they did achive duing the war, they did well.

they sunk:
475 merchant ships, 105 warships and 36 submarines at the cost of 74 of their own.
The majority of the 74 RN subs on enternal patrol were actually lost to mines and accidents. The Italilans nailed quite a few of them in the Med though.

07-07-08, 10:24 AM	#3
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,887 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	Nice discussion here lads , let's get back on track though with the OP regarding subs. Maybe Dowly you could start something up with regards to planes in the FS Forum, sounds like there is interest By the way, got IL46 the other day, man, could not get over the amount of planes to fly RDP __________________ Back in the Day

07-07-08, 11:50 AM	#7
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	as someone whos played both extensively and someone who's made opening salvo's my overall strength I totally prefer US boats over Uboats for many many reasons. that said As a dedicated subsimmer and student of the subject for life. I will play any boat in any theatre that is current state of the art. (how I ended up a uboat skipper!) M __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

07-07-08, 12:14 PM	#8
HunterICX Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2006 Location: Malaga, España Posts: 10,750 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	comparing aircraft whent its about submarines and... Comparing a P51 versus a Spitfire... you guys must be mad. P51: Long range High altitude fighter Spitfire: Interceptor you cant compare as they where of a different fighter class, if you would have a pool to compare the P51 with it would be- P-51 , Hawker Tempest and the FW190D ''Dora'' but in general comparing aircraft to show who had the best is just impossible as everything had their advantages and disadvantages: Advantages : use them well and there is a higher chance of victory for you Disadvantages : get in a situation where your disadvantages will start to act up and you have a risk to be done for. but in generals as for Aircraft and submarine alike, the mix between Men and Machine is also very important. HunterICX __________________

07-07-08, 11:40 AM	#4
Phaedrus A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 79 Downloads: 45 Uploads: 0	Just a few final notes: - A P-51 is really an unfair comparison, designed in 1940 as opposed to 1933 for the 109, and 1934. - Early model Spitfires had the eight .303's, later had two Hispano 20mm's and four .303's. - The 109 is the most produced fighter design in history, so that counts for something. Now, to return to the original discussion: There are similar circumstances in the fleet boat / u-boat debate. When trying to compare the boats, we would do well to remember that the VIIA was designed in 1934, with the VIIB following in 1936. While the IX boats were conceived in 1936. The VIIC which shouldered the bulk of the load was first commissioned in 1940, but as has been mentioned, it was essentially a WW1 design. The U.S. Gato class was quickly conceived and built, and entered production in 1940. The Balao class entered production in 1942. U.S. design included internal torpedo storage and many forward tubes, but had terrible torpedoes and inferior fire control, particularly in when surfaced at night. Pre-war U.S. training was also inferior compared to the German submariners, with just about half of U.S. commanders being relieved of command within the first 8 months of the war. I will allow that the comparison in training is not necessarily a useful comparison due to the vastly different missions of the two nation's sub forces (fleet engagement vs. blockade action). Summary: Each boat has it's own advantages and disadvantages, because they are really two different tools. Yes, they are both submarines and they go under water, but just because my tin snips and pliers go into the same tool box, it doesn't make them the same tool. Each is used for it's own designed purpose.

07-07-08, 11:43 AM	#5
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Their both rubbish!!! I prefer Royal Navy subs so there!

07-07-08, 03:28 PM	#10
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I'll have a 'T' please Bob. Shame the RN boats never saw the same scale of operational usage and success of their US and german cousins, but considering what they did achive duing the war, they did well. they sunk: 475 merchant ships, 105 warships and 36 submarines at the cost of 74 of their own. The majority of the 74 RN subs on enternal patrol were actually lost to mines and accidents. The Italilans nailed quite a few of them in the Med though.