Oxygen and food... ethernal?

Letum · 06-05-08, 06:24 PM

A little besides the point, but running out of O2 is not a big problem in a u-boat. They
can carry enough oxygen for a few months underwater if they needed to. The problem
is the CO2 which poisons the crew.

In a sealed room the CO2 will kill you a very long time before the lack of O2 does.

Sailor Steve · 06-05-08, 06:59 PM

Really? I always thought carbon dioxide, unlike carbon monoxide, wasn't really a poison - you just can't breath it. It's an inert gas. As we breath in O2, we breathe out CO2. Not having oxygen to breath is a definite problem. Also, in a truly sealed room like a submarine, unless there's some way to reconvert the oxygen, you have about 48 hours' worth, and that's it. Of course my memory is of things I refused to learn 40 years ago, so that's what it's worth.

As for the original question, they did have emergency masks with air for some time, but they were meant for escaping from the boat, not surviving inside for extended periods.

As for food, crew starvation was NOT a real problem, at least for u-boats. I've never read a report of a submarine crew starving, or even coming close.

abclkhan · 06-05-08, 08:13 PM

I agree in which concerns to CO2. Indeed, it brings you to narcosis, respiratory acidosis and later cardiorrespiratory arrest.
BUT a smaller crew will produce a smaller amount of CO2 thus leading to an extended time until its levels get high.
So, what about a mod you apply when you start the patrol, capable of changing the increase rate in CO2 levels? The mod could do this simply by reading the size of your crew. Could be even an add on to sh3 commander.

Thomsem:
I was thinking about a new fatigue model based on food reserves. Recovery would be as usual until for example, after 3 months at sea, when it would be impossible to recover the crew. To use the diesel bar is not a good option. I wouldnt place any bars, just some kind of information about the endurance of each uboat.

rifleman13 · 06-05-08, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As for food, crew starvation was NOT a real problem, at least for u-boats. I've never read a report of a submarine crew starving, or even coming close.

Because they are at sea!

They use torpedoes to harpoon the whales!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

They use the firearms on board to shoot at the fish!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

That's how they survive long after the ham, the sausages, the bananas and oranges expire!

Letum · 06-06-08, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Really? I always thought carbon dioxide, unlike carbon monoxide, wasn't really a poison - you just can't breath it. It's an inert gas. As we breath in O2, we breathe out CO2. Not having oxygen to breath is a definite problem. Also, in a truly sealed room like a submarine, unless there's some way to reconvert the oxygen, you have about 48 hours' worth, and that's it. Of course my memory is of things I refused to learn 40 years ago, so that's what it's worth.

The reason it's a poison and not just an inert gas is because it actually replaces the O2
in the blood, preventing more O2 entering your blood stream. Carbon monoxide is far
worse because it more permanently replaces the O2 in your blood. CO2 will drop back
out of your blood stream as soon as you return to a low CO2 environment.
It also makes your blood more acidic and triggers some of your bodies protection
systems.

At 8% CO2 you will be totally unable to operate a sub.

In the 1940s they did not have effective CO2 scrubbers. It's not very hard to store
pure O2 in large quantities, but it's no use if it's all being replaced by CO2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abclkhan

Thomsem:
I was thinking about a new fatigue model based on food reserves. Recovery would be as usual until for example, after 3 months at sea, when it would be impossible to recover the crew. To use the diesel bar is not a good option. I wouldnt place any bars, just some kind of information about the endurance of each uboat.

Yer, someone had a go at this. you might wanna search around for it. It worked quite well.

Sailor Steve · 06-06-08, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

The reason it's a poison and not just an inert gas is because it actually replaces the O2
in the blood, preventing more O2 entering your blood stream. Carbon monoxide is far
worse because it more permanently replaces the O2 in your blood. CO2 will drop back
out of your blood stream as soon as you return to a low CO2 environment.
It also makes your blood more acidic and triggers some of your bodies protection
systems.

At 8% CO2 you will be totally unable to operate a sub.

In the 1940s they did not have effective CO2 scrubbers. It's not very hard to store
pure O2 in large quantities, but it's no use if it's all being replaced by CO2.

Aha. As I like to say, the things I know would fill several big books; the things I don't know already fill millions of big books.

Thanks for the explanation.

Sag75 · 06-06-08, 05:33 PM

Yes, the carbon monoxide affinity for emoglobin is 200 time stronger than oxigen! so oxigen can't replace CO anymore in blood vessels...

abclkhan · 06-06-08, 08:47 PM

This is great we obviously have a consensus here about carbon dioxide.
But, back to the point, what about a mod reducing CO2's rise speed in smaller crews?
And the food? That would be so great!!!!

Anyway, my objective with this thread is to put the topic in evidence, maybe some enlighted modder chooses to solve this unrealistic situation giving us an even better game.
Questions sugestions on how to build it are welcome.

danurve · 06-11-08, 08:36 AM

abclkhan; I don't know if this will help or wizz on the fire, but about a year ago I was wondering the same thing about reducing the crew and Oxygen. While I agree some control over this would be great for the game, the way it was explained to me is because of the games hard code(s) this is another element that can't be changed.

06-05-08, 06:24 PM	#1
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	A little besides the point, but running out of O2 is not a big problem in a u-boat. They can carry enough oxygen for a few months underwater if they needed to. The problem is the CO2 which poisons the crew. In a sealed room the CO2 will kill you a very long time before the lack of O2 does. __________________

06-05-08, 06:59 PM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Really? I always thought carbon dioxide, unlike carbon monoxide, wasn't really a poison - you just can't breath it. It's an inert gas. As we breath in O2, we breathe out CO2. Not having oxygen to breath is a definite problem. Also, in a truly sealed room like a submarine, unless there's some way to reconvert the oxygen, you have about 48 hours' worth, and that's it. Of course my memory is of things I refused to learn 40 years ago, so that's what it's worth. As for the original question, they did have emergency masks with air for some time, but they were meant for escaping from the boat, not surviving inside for extended periods. As for food, crew starvation was NOT a real problem, at least for u-boats. I've never read a report of a submarine crew starving, or even coming close. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

06-05-08, 08:13 PM	#3
abclkhan Loader Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	I agree in which concerns to CO2. Indeed, it brings you to narcosis, respiratory acidosis and later cardiorrespiratory arrest. BUT a smaller crew will produce a smaller amount of CO2 thus leading to an extended time until its levels get high. So, what about a mod you apply when you start the patrol, capable of changing the increase rate in CO2 levels? The mod could do this simply by reading the size of your crew. Could be even an add on to sh3 commander. Thomsem: I was thinking about a new fatigue model based on food reserves. Recovery would be as usual until for example, after 3 months at sea, when it would be impossible to recover the crew. To use the diesel bar is not a good option. I wouldnt place any bars, just some kind of information about the endurance of each uboat. Last edited by abclkhan; 06-05-08 at 08:28 PM.

06-06-08, 05:33 PM	#7
Sag75 XO Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 424 Downloads: 45 Uploads: 0	Yes, the carbon monoxide affinity for emoglobin is 200 time stronger than oxigen! so oxigen can't replace CO anymore in blood vessels... __________________ Betasom - XI Gruppo Sommergibili Atlantici http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php

06-11-08, 08:36 AM	#9
danurve The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 1,481 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 3	abclkhan; I don't know if this will help or wizz on the fire, but about a year ago I was wondering the same thing about reducing the crew and Oxygen. While I agree some control over this would be great for the game, the way it was explained to me is because of the games hard code(s) this is another element that can't be changed. __________________

06-06-08, 08:47 PM	#8
abclkhan Loader Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	This is great we obviously have a consensus here about carbon dioxide. But, back to the point, what about a mod reducing CO2's rise speed in smaller crews? And the food? That would be so great!!!! Anyway, my objective with this thread is to put the topic in evidence, maybe some enlighted modder chooses to solve this unrealistic situation giving us an even better game. Questions sugestions on how to build it are welcome.