If a sim is hard, it is realistic? NO. I hate the sensor programming.

[Red Heat]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,
just have to vent a bit. After i said a thousand times the game is much too hard i made another similar experience again.

I have GWX2.0, with 2.1, and OLCE2, with the 1.2.5 Gui installed.

Yes i know the sensors in SH3 are screwed up, bad programming, one interacts with another etc. etc. So no we can not change the sensors for good, much too complicated, i do not know what i ask for. It seems we can only make them harder and more difficult. Ahaa.

Here goes:
It is still late 1939, black night and i would not see a mole in coal without Gamma set up to 2.5 with aTuner on my screen. Sure they must have had that in WW2. I just got the message that U-47 sank the Ark Royal and the Repulse. Nice. Next moment my lookout spots a convoy at roughly 11.5 kilometers. This could have happened, dark silhouettes against a horizon that is not quite as black as the sea, ok.

I overtake it at a distance of more than 10 km, the two escorts does not seem to see me. Since i know they and all merchants will see my 3 meter conning tower in a pitch black night and a distance of 8 km in SH3 (realistic eh) i go in submerged, silent running, slow.

I am at roughly 600 meters away from a freighter (submerged!), and since i want to get a bit closer i lower the 'scope and set the speed to "3". Instantly all hell breaks lose, not only are starshells going up, as well all the freighters turn on searchlights and someone is firing at me, hitting my conning tower and damaging the Flak. Next destroyer is 2000 m away as far as i can see. Back to slow alright.

Those freighters must have really advanced hydroscopes. Remember it is pitch black night, my periscope is lowered and i am submerged at 12-13 meters.

If this is realistic all books i ever read about the tactics and victories of U-boats are complete crap: U-boats ran into convoys surfaced, at night, between escorts and close to them whithout ever being seen. Now can't we somehow tweak this sim to be a bit more realistic without making it ridiculously hard ?

Grrr. I hate it. I am feeling better now. Thanks.

Greetings,
Catfish

I think your are RIGHT!
I feel the same....

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To Catfish and others who whinge and complain regarding the sensors in GWX... I am going to respond with all the kindness and cordiality that I can muster... inspite of the rudeness of the OP.

"Was GWX's AI altered for the sake of challenge?" The answer is no. I mean no offense, but If your comparison's used the scientific method, and had begun with stock SH3... The improvements that GWX arguably introduces, may present you with a clearer picture of where we are versus where SH3 started. Modifications to GWX AI sensors were made with the intent to produce historically plausible situations and outcomes, to the best of our abilities... within an entire series of game and code limitations. Increased challenge to the player though, was a predictable side effect of modding the enemy AI sensors.

The AI should punish dumb mistakes... In stock SH3 escorts/DD's/AI response is boneheaded and thick beyond belief IMHO... allowing total distruction of convoys and taskforces with virtually no risk to the player.

A proper gradient reflecting the progression of technology, resulting in an accelerating curve of U-boat losses is modelled in GWX.

Is it perfect? Of course not. I don't think any mod's ASW arrangement or sensors modification is perfect... nor do I feel that we have anything to be ashamed of. It does the job quite nicely IMHO. On full realism, it certainly cuts down on 500,000 ton single patrols by players... The GWX dev team made a concerted effort to interlock the ASW assets, damage models, contact reports, campaign files, and weapon damage balancing in an effort cut down on rediculous tonnage hauls.

Reputable sources were used and relied upon. (Clay Blair, U-boat Commander's Handbook circa 1943... and a whole HOST of sources listed in the GWX manual) GWX dev teamers were not the victims of fictional 'propaganda' nor were they historical revisionists.

Ease of success breeds bad habits and false expectations.

Players have had it easy and have not been forced to think as submarine captains.

Your greatest weapons are not your torpedoes... and certainly not your deck gun.

Your greatest weapons are stealth and patience.

Typically what I see in those who complain is a sense that they can do no wrong. "I've been playing sub simulations for years and this isn't right because blah blah blah..."

It is easy to blame the mod instead of admitting complacency and the desire for instant gratification.

The people who built GWX, whatever their individual faults may be, are among the best that subsim has to offer.

Nothing under the sun that we do, or choose not to do, is going to make everyone happy. Tailoring the AI perception (or any element of GWX) to each individual's personal preference or interpretation is quite naturally impossible. I hope you will also understand that we don't really have any intention of helping users UNDO what we worked so hard to build... based on atypical experiences colored by individual wishes.

Months were spent tuning the ASW sensors in GWX... and months of code crunching, spent isolating sensors, determining their limits and "signal strength" at various ranges, and and interpretation (often leading to dead ends... you can't just plug in real life data and expect life-like results in SH3) preceeded the gradual changes and testing. From the original GW to GWX it continued to evolve. I'd rather have all my teeth pulled out with rusty pliers and no anesthetic, than to revisit it again!

One thing that we cannot change, is the experience base of the player... as your experience is not reduced with your simulated "death." There is no way to properly simulate U-boat warfare in any game... we can only approximate it. The player will always learn from a simulated death.

It is a good thing for us that when you die in SH3... you live to count rivets another day. You do not drown, or have to abandon ship, or be taken prisoner... You get to fight another day and carry the experience... and the desire to become a better U-boat captain.

In the end... the downloads do the talking. GWX 2.0 ALONE has been downloaded more than 10,000 times. Those are simply the ones that can be counted. I suspect a further 20,000 from other locations such as GameShadow, Atomic Gamer etc. If the AI (or any element) in GWX was so terrible, complaints about it would be incessant. I am not saying this to be bombastic or arrogant. I am saying it to drive home the points being made.

Seriously folks... if GWX causes you such distress, you have choices. Use them.

If anyone has put a gun to your head and forced you to use (and keep using) GWX... please raise your hand.

Stop complaining and get to patrolling.

[JScones]

Having now turned my attention to actually playing GWX 2.1 (with SH3Cmdr R3.1.2 and wow, if I may say so myself, what an experience), in consideration of restraints such as hard code limitations imposed by SH3 (and there IS a lot - static behaviour for all years is just one of many, and one reason why SH3Cmdr exists), I have to say that I'm not sure we could get anything better. No, GWX 2.1 is not perfect, but I don't see anyone saying that it is. I'm now in mid-1940 having started in Aug 1939 and with discipline, I've had good success. I've watched enemy Destroyers totally miss me even though I wasn't that far away. Why? Because I'm disciplined in my approach and use what I consider effective evasive measures. And in times where I have been bounced, as frustrating as they were, it was because of my own stupidity - staying surfaced, conning tower breach, or some other stupid behaviour of mine.

I may not like being seen many kms away in dense fog and then watching the Destroyer make a bee-line for me only to pound me into oblivion, but conversely, I don't like sitting on the surface waving to the enemy either while they earnestly look for me. Although on this last point, one convoy I attacked I sunk three merchants and the escorts went straight to where I was and hung around there. Of course, I was on the other side of the convoy at that point laughing at them, so evasion is possible and not that hard if you know what you are doing, at least in the early years. Come 1943 things may be different, but so too will my tactics.

Just my opinion, ymmv.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

If anyone has put a gun to your head and forced you to use (and keep using) GWX... please raise your hand.

*Raises hand*

Balz made me do it. It wasn't exactly a gun, but he'd threatened me with a rendition of "Vanilla shIII isn't hoochie woochie enough" in his VIIB if I didn't install it. Now he's threatening a concert if I uninstall it.

Someone get him a type IX quick!!!

[johan_d]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Stop complaining and get to patrolling.

JAWOHL HERR KALEUN!

[Red Heat]

Originally Posted by johan_d

JAWOHL HERR KALEUN!

*Salute!

"You heard the man...
In the Double with those provisions... this is a non stop operation!"
Schnell!...Schnell!! lol

[danurve]

Originally Posted by johan_d

2. is the 2 knot speed hardcoded ot can it be altered?

If your talking about your sub then no it's a cfg file. Under [EngineProperties] you can change AheadSlow to =0.25 for example. Then your rpm's should be about 50 or 1 knot. Keep in mind this will make keeping depth below 160 difficult. Or, you can just alter the knots by dial.

[Bosje]

Try SH4, those crappy escorts will detect you no matter what, the very second a certain 'range' covers your boat. silent running, all engines stop, deep or not, they suddenly start pinging when they get within a certain amount of yards. sole reason i went back to SH3 for the moment.

to me, gwx has always felt very realistic actually, when i got detected it was because i took a risk and lost. much like you running 3 kts. 'fair enough' i say

[Rockin Robbins]

I take the fact of your frustration as evidence of success. Is not frustration a right and proper part of simulation? Or were the real captains not frustrated?

Just one tiny piece of supporting evidence. The real U-Boat captains were afraid to their piece of passive radar detector because they were convinced it was broadcasting signals detectable by enemy aircraft! That is an action born of undiluted frustration.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,
just have to vent a bit. After i said a thousand times the game is much too hard i made another similar experience again.

I have GWX2.0, with 2.1, and OLCE2, with the 1.2.5 Gui installed.

Yes i know the sensors in SH3 are screwed up, bad programming, one interacts with another etc. etc. So no we can not change the sensors for good, much too complicated, i do not know what i ask for. It seems we can only make them harder and more difficult. Ahaa.

Here goes:
It is still late 1939, black night and i would not see a mole in coal without Gamma set up to 2.5 with aTuner on my screen. Sure they must have had that in WW2. I just got the message that U-47 sank the Ark Royal and the Repulse. Nice. Next moment my lookout spots a convoy at roughly 11.5 kilometers. This could have happened, dark silhouettes against a horizon that is not quite as black as the sea, ok.

I overtake it at a distance of more than 10 km, the two escorts does not seem to see me. Since i know they and all merchants will see my 3 meter conning tower in a pitch black night and a distance of 8 km in SH3 (realistic eh) i go in submerged, silent running, slow.

I am at roughly 600 meters away from a freighter (submerged!), and since i want to get a bit closer i lower the 'scope and set the speed to "3". Instantly all hell breaks lose, not only are starshells going up, as well all the freighters turn on searchlights and someone is firing at me, hitting my conning tower and damaging the Flak. Next destroyer is 2000 m away as far as i can see. Back to slow alright.

Those freighters must have really advanced hydroscopes. Remember it is pitch black night, my periscope is lowered and i am submerged at 12-13 meters.

If this is realistic all books i ever read about the tactics and victories of U-boats are complete crap: U-boats ran into convoys surfaced, at night, between escorts and close to them whithout ever being seen. Now can't we somehow tweak this sim to be a bit more realistic without making it ridiculously hard ?

Grrr. I hate it. I am feeling better now. Thanks.

Greetings,
Catfish

Just be a wimp like me and try out other mods that aren't so realistic as GWX. Btw it lets you get a chance trying out the smaller mods, im playing AOTD mod at the moment hence i can run into convoys at night and slaughter them early years that is. I can run in there submerged doing 5knots and not worry about getting detected from a destroyer thats 3 miles away, just last night i was on the surface late afternoon with a convoy in my sites and destroyer not far off about 4800yrds i stayed on the surface until she detected me which was around 4000yrds then i dived to my surprise she hammered the hell out of us and made sure we stayed down until i use silent running then its was just a matter of waiting for her to leave and heading to PD for some kills. Easy? Yes. But thats my game play - stress free!. Just installed this Taskforce mod that adds more taskforces than normal gonna try it out tonight No offence intended to GWX its a killer mod, more a thinking mans gameplay intended, but i hate stress i get enough of that working ! :rotfl:

[Catfish]

Hello,
" ... Stop complaining and get to patrolling. ..."
Aye aye, Sir!
I really did not want to "bump" this post again, i really believe we even should let it die now.
Thanks all for the kind answers to my - as it was described - original rude post . You are certainly right, and that is why i wrote i had to vent, which i meant as an excuse for not caring for stepping on one's toes.
Indeed i may not even have criticized GWX, OLCE or any other mod, but the basic programming of the original SH3 - some objects or classes obviously have not been scripted in a way that it is possible to change them according to changing environment and time progressing in WW2. It took me a long time to accept that. Thanks again to Kpt. Lehmann and others who pointed that out. Maybe we can once get the SDK, and change a portion of the code according to the year the patrol takes place, like copying in and out portions of the code to really change the sensors according to time and development. :hmm:

If you take two years and 4-5 men to produce something like SH3 out of the blue the original dev team did already do a good job - i can still remember how i was blown away by the wave action and the atmosphere in the training mission after starting the sim for the first time - ages ago i know... and this nice little red triangle ....
As i explained to OLC, it is that all those mods have made such a marvelous sim of the original game, that i expect this shiny polish in every detail, and cannot help feeling let down when i stumble over something that is still strange.

Ok, back to patrol,
thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Jimbuna]

SINK EM ALL!!

[Sailor Steve]

How hard is too hard and how easy is too easy? I still haven't started a patrol yet - juggling mods and experimenting with stuff. But every now and then I play the 'Happy Times' single mission, and just the other day I beat it for the very first time. Of course I was cheating right and left, using external views and all; basically just screwing around. My point is that I always get caught, and always because I take way to many chances, mainly because I can see everything that's going on. That said, I've been watching the AI behavior, and they are far from perfect. It's kind of fun, really, to watch them be spot on one time and then run right over me and not drop the next.

All this is a setup for one question: frustrations aside, how are your tonnage scores? If you're still outscoring the real kaleuns by large amounts, then the game isn't too hard...it just seems that way. In real patrols in the past, my tonnages were fairly conservative. But then when I get serious I play with my eyes closed.

[_Seth_]

Just remember; SH3 is NOT a simulator. It was never intended to be a simulator. When SH3 was released, it was an arcade game, something like a "shoot-em-up" game IMHO. GWX and other excellent mods made the game more realistic; not like a simulator, but realistic enough to give you goosebumps and lots of frustration, without destroying the playability.
IF (im saying if) SH3 was a simulator, like FS9 or FSX is for the fligtsim world, then i would like to read all the postings in this forum.....
Example;
1: How many of you have actually tried to balancing a submerged uboat in stormy weather and unpredictable tidal current conditions at periscope depth? How would this be on a computer?
2: What would you do if the diesel filter to the starboard engine clogged up, causing the engine to stop? Would you try a restart? What if you just had spotted a convoy, and you were racing in on the surface, ready to attack when this happend? Would you abort the attack?
3: What about navigation? Ever tried to calculate a route around the british isles, considering drift and weather?
4: And the AI...
In GWX 2.1, i think the enemy stops hunting you after 30 minutes without any contact of you. What about staying down for ....lets say...4 hours, and not hearing a d*mn thing ot the hydrophone, just to surface and stare right into Capt. Johnnie Walker's barrels...?

No, you guys....Im totally grateful that SH3 and the supermods are just the way they are....

Just my two cents and a bottel of cheap beer..

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by _Seth_

Just remember; SH3 is NOT a simulator. It was never intended to be a simulator. When SH3 was released, it was an arcade game, something like a "shoot-em-up" game IMHO. GWX and other excellent mods made the game more realistic; not like a simulator, but realistic enough to give you goosebumps and lots of frustration, without destroying the playability.

Nooo! Don't say that!
Clearly you're mistaken and the truth is that the Germans would have won WW2 if I had been one of their U-boat commanders as proven by my results on this totally realistic simulator!