Russian active sonar

[msalama]

S!

I'm playing a Black Sea campaign at the moment, and it seems that Uncle Joe's boys don't really have it together when it comes to active sonar. They usually lose me once I'm at 120m or so, but I'm just wondering whether their systems really were that primitive...

Does anyone have any real historical information about the system(s) they used, such as their cutoff depth / range and the downward angle etcetera? I've googled for clues but have hit absolutely nothing so far!

Thanks for any infos you can send my way ladies and gents

[Hitman]

Can't provide links but I have readed a book about german subs in the Black Sea where it stated that soviet sonar technology was not as good as the british or american one. Fact is, even some decades later, in the cold war, their electronics where a step or two behind the western ones until the late 70s.

Couple that with the smaller sonar profile of the Type II and you have a more or less realistic situation.

[Tombow]

Some russian ships were fitted with the "Дракон-128C" (Dragon) active sonar (either a 1:1 copy or a straight british ASDIC). From what I've dug up, at least one destroyer of the Black Sea Fleet has been fitted with it:

http://flot.sevastopol.info/ship/esminets/sposobniy.htm (link in Russian)


This page (link in russian too):
http://forums.airbase.ru/2002/01/t8788--esmincy.html
mentions some of the "Project 7"-destroyers (the backbone of the russian destroyer Fleet in WWII) having been fitted with the Dragon at one point or another. More detailed info might be found here (following links in russian):

http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...6_02/index.htm
(monography on the "Project 7" destroyers)

maybe more here:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...7_06/index.htm
(same, but for the improved 7У version)

and here:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...8_06/index.htm
(monography on the Leningrad-Class destroyer leaders)

More books from the same website mention also certain russian submarines of the Pike and S-Class being outfitted with ASDIC late in the war (predominantly in the Northern Fleet)

Sorry, I am too busy/lazy to dig out and translate the detailed info. Also, these sources leave one uncertainity - was the Dragon just an ASDIC Copy or a russian development based on it and if it was a copy, was there also a genuine russian-developed ASDIC as well.

As for the popular sub hunters of the MO (Малый охотник - literally "small hunter") class (deployed in large quantities in the Black Sea, I didn't find any info on them being fitted with ASDIC.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Doctor Haider]

I have a monography about the Pike class submarines (in Russian) that describe the Drakon as the ASDIC copy.

Another monography I have (about the project 7 class destroyers) also states that Drakon was actually leand-leased British ASDIC. Also this monography says that several sonars of German origin were bought just prior the war and installed on some 7s but there is no exact information about the perfomance of these sonars in Red Navy.

[Tombow]

@Doctor Haider: perhaps we are citing the same sources? (see the links in this and in my first post)

A bit of off-topic, but since these monographies were mentioned, here are the link to some good online reading (in russian though):

1. Russian S-Class submarines (roughly equals Typ IX):
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...0_02/index.htm

2. Pike class submarines production series III, Vbis and Vbis2:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...2_02/index.htm


3. Pike class submarines production series X and Xbis:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...2_04/index.htm

All detailed monographies describing history, construction, technical details and more or less complete writeups about the fate of each boat. Makes a nice reading for long evenings (if one speaks russian of course). If enough interest exists, maybe I could attempt translating.

[msalama]

Thank you for the links and information guys, seems extremely interesting! Will go through it all later today after I get off from work.

Fact is, even some decades later, in the cold war, their electronics where a step or two behind the western ones until the late 70s.

And even after that as a matter of fact, because military applications aside the Eastern Block actually never caught up with the West. Not that they didn't try though: here's an interesting article from an Eastern German magazine for agitators stressing the importance of using and developing microelectronics in the GDR -

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/waswie1.htm#anchor1012384

S! again guys, and thanks once more for the links etcetera.

[irish1958]

What an amazing game and forum! The details about the sub and anit-sub warfare in the WWII is astounding.

[Doctor Haider]

Originally Posted by Tombow

@Doctor Haider: perhaps we are citing the same sources? (see the links in this and in my first post)

The monography I posess is written by Balakin and Morozov, the second author also took part in writing the paperworks published on Wunderwaffe. But my paper monography is significantly newer.

[Doctor Haider]

Originally Posted by Tombow

1. Russian S-Class submarines (roughly equals Typ IX):
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...0_02/index.htm

I should also note that the Russian S-Class and German Type I were created over the same prototype, the submarine built in early 30s by the IvS for Spain.

[Tombow]

Originally Posted by Doctor Haider

I should also note that the Russian S-Class and German Type I were created over the same prototype

If we're going to complete the list, the finnish Vetehinen Class share the same ancestry :-)

@Doctor Haider: if you had the time to compare your monography with the ones published on Wunderwaffe, are there any additions/new details in it? Would be very interested on that. The wreck of one of the Black Sea Pikes has been discovered only as late as 2000, so there is plenty of possibilities that in the meantime, more wrecks are being discovered or details added.

Back to the russian sonars. Continuing digging the net, here is a website describing some russian northern fleet operations in WWII. Several mentions of destroyers and big submarine hunters of the БО (Большой Охотник - literally "Big Hunter") Class being fitted with ASDIC and description of allegedly successfull attacks (since we're not in the position to double-check the data however it should be taken with a healthy portion of doubt). Link in russian:

http://vmk.vif2.ru/battles/WWII/Shed.../article7.html

Simply googling for "АСДИК" (russian translation/transliteration) turns out a lot of links, some of them pretty useful. On the contrary, googling for "АСДИК" together with the russian designation of the radar (Дракон-128 or Дракон-128С) turns out only a handful of websites, some of them pretty useless. Guess we have to wait for a real expert to clarify the details about the russian version.

A funny side note I remember reading back when I was a teenager - in the russian pacific fleet there has been a curious experiment to enhance the use of regular hydrophones. A small submarine hunters of the MO-2 class has been fitted with makeshift sail rigging designed to be attached to its masts (so it could keep its engines still while hearing for any submarines down). In a "proof-of-concept" exercise against a Pike class it proved successfull, maintaining sound contact with the submarine for more than 4 hours (until the submarine was forced to surface, well in range of the hunter).

[Doctor Haider]

[QUOTE=Tombow][quote=Doctor Haider]

Originally Posted by Tombow

@Doctor Haider: if you had the time to compare your monography with the ones published on Wunderwaffe, are there any additions/new details in it? Would be very interested on that. The wreck of one of the Black Sea Pikes has been discovered only as late as 2000, so there is plenty of possibilities that in the meantime, more wrecks are being discovered or details added.

Ok. I'm too tired now to thoroughly read something but I'll try to compare them tomorrow or a day after tomorrow.

@Tombow: If you need some information about the Soviet/Russian submarine service and can read Russian then the best source is the www.deepstorm.ru. This website contains detailed information about almost every submarine in Russian navy from 1904 up to the present time including fates, commanders, technical data, description, blueprints etc. The site updates frequently.

Only there I managed to get information about the subs of Russian Imperial Navy that was ordered but weren't built because of the Revolution and the subs that were only planned.