[WIP] Flt Boat Damage Model Redux

[Observer]

Originally Posted by iricund

My only slight qualm with the damage/death by 20mm etc armaments is that enemy gun positions will keep firing despite being pummeled themselves. It's nigh on impossible for us to suppress their deck guns/AA positions and I can therefore envisage vast numbers of dead crew members on my submarine during surface attacks.

If it were possible to model our AA gun crews to suppress enemy gunners I'd have less of a problem. Good stuff in theory, but unbalanced in practice.

First submarines should not be in gun duels with surface ships. That to the side though I believe this problem is a function of the fact that not all surface ship guns have damage zones.

I believe the same problem exists for the guns on the fleet boat. I intend to check tonight. In either case the equipment is not tied to the zone, so an automatic disconnect exists. Note that in the applicable submarine UPC file if the ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D is set to -1 then the equipment is damaged based on damage to the compartment zone. This is the case for the DG, and AA guns. I intend to fix this.

[iricund]

Whilst I recognise that submarines should not be duking it out on the surface if at all possible, there are numerous occasions whereby I'll surface to finish off a crippled vessel with my deck gun rather than waste a torpedo on it. It may not be entirely historically accurate but when we're talking about the odd merchant with maybe a lone deck gun and a couple of AA mounts I think it's valid to preserve torps for future high value targets you may run across. Avoiding the deck gun is simple enough simply by positioning yourself outside its arc of fire if there is only one of them, but the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

I'd have thought in reality that a crippled vessel would hardly be gunning for the submarine at that point, rather they'd be trying to keep afloat and/or manning the lifeboats. Equally I'd be expecting me deck crew to be sitting there with small arms/manning the fixed guns to suppress/remove any enemy sailors suicidal enough to try and fire back at that point. That's still my only qualm. In terms of the engine damage etc the work looks fantastic. It's merely the small arms fire issue which I take issue with.

EDIT: I should point out that I'm purely talking about small arms and heavy machine gun fire here. If I'm cruising about on the surface with 5" shells hitting me I'd more than expect a few crew to be meeting their maker.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by iricund

Whilst I recognise that submarines should not be duking it out on the surface if at all possible, there are numerous occasions whereby I'll surface to finish off a crippled vessel with my deck gun rather than waste a torpedo on it. It may not be entirely historically accurate but when we're talking about the odd merchant with maybe a lone deck gun and a couple of AA mounts I think it's valid to preserve torps for future high value targets you may run across. Avoiding the deck gun is simple enough simply by positioning yourself outside its arc of fire if there is only one of them, but the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

I'd have thought in reality that a crippled vessel would hardly be gunning for the submarine at that point, rather they'd be trying to keep afloat and/or manning the lifeboats. Equally I'd be expecting me deck crew to be sitting there with small arms/manning the fixed guns to suppress/remove any enemy sailors suicidal enough to try and fire back at that point. That's still my only qualm. In terms of the engine damage etc the work looks fantastic. It's merely the small arms fire issue which I take issue with.

EDIT: I should point out that I'm purely talking about small arms and heavy machine gun fire here. If I'm cruising about on the surface with 5" shells hitting me I'd more than expect a few crew to be meeting their maker.

In the case of small arms fire, range is your friend. You won't have to worry about it if you back off to 2 - 2.5 kyds.

[chrysanthos]

the s3d is very hard tool...specially for me anyway i have managed to mess around with kongo and i found the spheres and boxes about damage....now what?? i tried to change some of the armor from -1 to 15 and the game crashes:/ anyone now the right procedure to send via readme?

[akdavis]

Originally Posted by iricund

Whilst I recognise that submarines should not be duking it out on the surface if at all possible, there are numerous occasions whereby I'll surface to finish off a crippled vessel with my deck gun rather than waste a torpedo on it. It may not be entirely historically accurate but when we're talking about the odd merchant with maybe a lone deck gun and a couple of AA mounts I think it's valid to preserve torps for future high value targets you may run across. Avoiding the deck gun is simple enough simply by positioning yourself outside its arc of fire if there is only one of them, but the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

Sounds like you want them to stay mostly invulnerable to fire then. Seriously though, you should have to weigh the risks of engaging in a surface action just to save a mechanical device. It should not be the no-brainer decision it always was in the past.

It's just too bad that the captain (you) can't be shot on the bridge and insta-end your career.

[Ducimus]

I havent followed this in detail yet (i keep glossing over it speed reading), but i do have one concern. Istrongly suspect that we're all going off into 3 different directions with the same file. RFB has their own version, ive just posted my own revision last night:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_03.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_06.jpg

and then we have this brilliant piece of rework in progress.

Rather then come up with 3 different versions of the same file, i thought maybe at some point we should all put our heads together make "the" submarine upc files.

Another concern i have is that major revisions in this file requires a start of a new career game. I think we'll drive everyone nuts in that regard. Ironically as i was uploading the new version of TM last night, and was thinking to myself myself, "im not touching that file again for awhile!", i then saw this thread, and immediatly my hand went to my forehead (the proverbial facepalm) and thought, "We really need to work on our coordination here".

[tater]

the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

Which is why a real skipper would think twice before needlessly endangering his crew for fear of "wasting a torpedo."

Course I think in terms of a reasonable career spanning tonnage take of maybe 100,000 tons, not that much per patrol.

tater

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I havent followed this in detail yet (i keep glossing over it speed reading), but i do have one concern. Istrongly suspect that we're all going off into 3 different directions with the same file. RFB has their own version, ive just posted my own revision last night:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_03.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_06.jpg

and then we have this brilliant piece of rework in progress.

Rather then come up with 3 different versions of the same file, i thought maybe at some point we should all put our heads together make "the" submarine upc files.

Another concern i have is that major revisions in this file requires a start of a new career game. I think we'll drive everyone nuts in that regard. Ironically as i was uploading the new version of TM last night, and was thinking to myself myself, "im not touching that file again for awhile!", i then saw this thread, and immediatly my hand went to my forehead (the proverbial facepalm) and thought, "We really need to work on our coordination here".

Concur. This is about 1 months worth of work for me. I spent a lot of time trying every possible idea and combination I could think of to get the propulsion model to work. I really didn't want to give up on that part of this damage model. In either case, this is why I've no problem sharing the information. In fact I rather dreaded doing the other boats, so the more help the better. How would you and the RFB team propose cooperating on this?

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Observer

Concur. This is about 1 months worth of work for me. I spent a lot of time trying every possible idea and combination I could think of to get the propulsion model to work. I really didn't want to give up on that part of this damage model. In either case, this is why I've no problem sharing the information. In fact I rather dreaded doing the other boats, so the more help the better. How would you and the RFB team propose cooperating on this?

Speaking for the RFB team (since I'm the one who's heavily modded the UPC files), I'm primarily interested in the parts of the files you've modded (i.e., Equipment.upc and the submarine UPC files and anything else you've modded). For me it's then a simple matter of merging your changes with the other ones I've made (things like crew rosters, upgrade pack schedules, etc.). What might be the best way to do that is to upload a set of files(s) that contain only the sections you've modded, and then like I said above I can then merge this in to my work for RFB.

And as well, you can sign up at the RFB forums ( http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php...647a9120c08614 ), so you can discuss this in further detail over there as well.

[andycaccia]

It's a grat work.
I'd like to know more about the crew "berthing" (or what its name is) compartment. What is its funcion?