Modern Sub warfare and torpedo tactics.

[ekempey]

Is that not what the Photonics masts are for on the Virginia class boats (and some of the Seawolf class)? They are used for a quick pop up, and then analysis of the visual information below on TV screens. I dont think the mast has to be up for more than a few seconds.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by ekempey

Is that not what the Photonics masts are for on the Virginia class boats (and some of the Seawolf class)? They are used for a quick pop up, and then analysis of the visual information below on TV screens. I dont think the mast has to be up for more than a few seconds.

That's how the periscope works in Dangerous Waters. You pop it up, take a photo of the target and lower it down. Range and AOB finding is then performed on the photo which allows you to take your time with it. I don't know how realistic that is, but at least ingame it works quite well.

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by gAiNiAc

We had an F-14 from my squadron once spot a periscope trailing the carrier TF...........ASW Tomcat!

Recently a chinese Kilo submarine surfaced near of an U.S carrier...:hmm:
this little submarine could be very quiet sometimes because don´t have any reactor or turbines.

Missiles are a good weapon against convoys, because you can decide the waypoints and when it can use the homing radar, making very difficult stop it in the last moment when you launch several of them. for example the russian "sunburn"

[Terror_666]

Originally Posted by Hartmann

Missiles are a good weapon against convoys, because you can decide the waypoints and when it can use the homing radar, making very difficult stop it in the last moment when you launch several of them. for example the russian "sunburn"

Only if a sub has over-the-horizen radar data from another source else the missiles are likely to just target the first thing they come in contact with i.e. ship.

Odds are that in a modern convoy situation there will be a sub of some sort as one of the escorts.

And Germany's new IDAS (Interactive Defence and Attack System for Submarines) missiles threaten to make AWS helo's obsolete.
because it gives AA ability back to the submarine thereby completely eliminating any advantage it had over a sub.

[Crosseye76]

Originally Posted by Quagmire

How would a successful 688 skipper attack a well guarded convoy? Your best bet would be to use standoff weapons like the Harpoon or something but getting close enough to launch a torpedo seems like suicide. Now dont get me wrong, the MK84 ADCAP is an awesome weapon. Wire guided, and then passive or active homing at any depth is something only WWII skippers could dream of. However once launched you would be immediately detected. With all the helos with dipping sonars, air launched homing ASW torpedoes, MAD equipped aircraft, etc. how would you evade successfully?.

Most of the other posts have done a good job of confirming that a 688 vs. Convoy would be a very bad day for the convoy. A lot depends on the tactical situation of course.

In a mid-ocean deep water battle, without any external targeting data from Recon sats or aircraft, the Sub would probably begin the approach from sonar.

A 688 might pick a convoy in the third Convergence zone. The Data would give a good bearing to the Convoy and might give a course as well. As the Sub ( and convoy ) moved, the sub might come to Periscope depth for a few minutes to try and get a sniff of any Aircraft or Helos around. If the data was firm enough, a Cruise missile attack could be launched from here with a reasonable chance of success against Merchant ships, with the Sub moving to maintain the Convoy contact in the Third CZ. For a torpedo attack, or an attack using shorter range missiles, the sub would close in.

As the sub regains the convoy contact in the second CZ, she would fine tune the data, getting firm course and speed data if she was not able to get it from the third CZ data.

As the contact moves from the second CZ to the first, the sub might come shallow again to sniff for Aircraft and Escorts.

When the convoy enters the first CZ / Direct Path range it's Torpedo time. The Mk-48 ADCAP has a range of about 23 miles at 55 knots, or about 31 miles at 40 knots. Against a fat, slow moving Merchant that can't sprint away from your torpedo, a long range shot at slow speed will still have a good chance of success. Launching and running the torpedo under the layer from longer range will also not give the Escorts a "Flaming Datum" noise spike to go hunting after.

The Mk-48's own attack logic is pretty good, so it's possible the Sub could launch one or two at the convoy, cut the wires, and sprint at deep depth to re-position itself. As the first torpedos arrive and attack the merchants, the sub can prepare another shot to run at fast speed, and try and pick off one of the Escorts charging around in reaction to the first merchants getting torpedoed.... or just continue to pick off the Merchants.

[Rip]

Captains of modern subs have many more options and much more information to act upon. The one think you won't see that was popular in WW2 is surface battle stations. The only way you will see a modern sub on the surface other than entering/leaving port is if it is in dire distress. Even shallow depths are avoided uless a good tactical need calls for it.

The one thing I differ with that I've read others here note is that I think periscope observation is overstated. It does tend to be done is simulated attacks and training but I believe that if the actual **** ever hit the fan long range attacks using non-visual sensors would prevail. Myself I would probably never come above the layer unless it was totally necessary.

[Crosseye76]

Originally Posted by Rip

The one thing I differ with that I've read others here note is that I think periscope observation is overstated. It does tend to be done is simulated attacks and training but I believe that if the actual **** ever hit the fan long range attacks using non-visual sensors would prevail. Myself I would probably never come above the layer unless it was totally necessary.

Yeah Rip, in the deep water mid-ocean attack example I was giving, the sub might come up once or maybe twice during the Approach Phase. This would not really be for primary purpose of a Periscope observation (although a smart skipper might make a quick sweep to see whats to be seen). If your shooting a missile or a torpedo from 20+ miles, you won't see much of anything in the Periscope anyway, target-wise. It's more to quickly poke the ESM mast up, and see what Radars are running, with a particular focus on looking for Airborne Surface Search radars. If he decides to also poke the Periscope up, he'll use it to look for close range aircraft / helos, and make sure there is nothing odd or dangerous in the Subs local area.

As you quite rightly pointed out, a smart skipper will take all the data, from as many different sensors as he can, to form the best tactical picture possible before putting weapons in the water.