New Olympic sport - Bashing Beijing!

[CptSimFreak]

Originally Posted by Trex

The last tripe I've seen like this was produced by the Soviets showing their peaceloving army 'defending itself' after having invaded Czechoslovakia.

Go suck your thumb, kid. Maybe that'll pacify you.

In the same way US 'defending itself' in Iraq and Afganistan?

Both nations are dirty to the core...I've lived there and here....I've seen both versions.....'kid'

What amazing about that video is that the Chinese goverment released a video of "Police" marching through Lhasa showing how determined they were to crackdown on unrest , and the "Police" were wearing the exact same uniforms and riot gear - Remember , this was from an Official press release , now their saying that the western media have used faked video with Nepalese Police

[Trex]

CptSimFreak - I was not addressing you, rather the producer of this amateurish little comedy. The image produced is that of a small child whining. Sorry if that was not clear.

[Skybird]

I heared a rumour that athletes winning in Beijing and keeping their mouth shut will be rewarded a Chinese order of merit. All other athletes of the competition get an Olympic gold medal as consolation prize.

[peterloo]

Originally Posted by skybird

I heared a rumour that athletes winning in Beijing and keeping their mouth shut will be rewarded a Chinese order of merit. All other athletes of thecompetition get an Olympic gold medal as consolation prize.

As what you've pointed out, a rumor. It's best not to spread rumors these days, as they might lead to misunderstandings. You may, still, provide proof to show that this is a genuine action taken.

It is cynism at it's maximum that IOC rules forbid any political statement inside the athletes' Olympic camps, while the whole show is being run as a political PR and propaganda show by the hosting nation for which these rules obviously are not valid.

Looks like Beijing offered some additional benefit to IOC and in return, IOC now bans any public statements in the camps. In that case, BOTH IOC and Beijing seems to be engaging in some sort of hidden transactions

What amazing about that video is that the Chinese goverment released a video of "Police" marching through Lhasa showing how determined they were to crackdown on unrest , and the "Police" were wearing the exact same uniforms and riot gear - Remember , this was from an Official press release , now their saying that the western media have used faked video with Nepalese Police

I've heard about this as well. Since Beijing stopped any foreign reporters in regions where unrest were in rife, we don't know whether Beijing is telling the truth, or whether she is lying

History will tell

[AkbarGulag]

Mis-information (or lies, whatever you prefer) is as much in practice in many democracies as it is in authoritarian regimes. There is purely too many examples to quote.

The few friends I have in China never discuss politics, nor do I ever pursue a conversation about politics. Take from that what you like, but the overall impression I get is that they are more interested in getting ahead in life than worrying about repression. Our conversations are always about things that any friend would have with you in normal day to day lives. How is buisness, whats your new appartment like etc.. etc.. If you do not rock the boat, you won't get wet feet. Just like in any country. China is changing rapidly and no one opinion will be able to answer what direction that is, without offending one group or another.

America for example exports hate sites on the internet, I sure don't like it, but hey, whatever suits them I guess. In fact, one hate site from America is one of New Zealands most popular web pages and is politically motivated. It seeks to sway peoples political direction to what can only be described as bigoted and devisive. Go freedom!

I make this point because it seems many people posting in this thread have a very blinkered attitude or merely have an agenda. Something about throwing stones in glass houses anyway

[Dmitry Markov]

AkbarGulag! Another good post

Your impression about your Chinese friends is exactly the one my father has about his business trips to China. It's not like it was in CCCP - "everyone are poor and equal but some few have all the wealth".
My father saw throng of people who live good even by European measures. He also saw people who live in poverty even by Tajikistan measures. But the way they look at their status is like: "That's because I show not very much energy to achieve higher results". Very optimistic nation.
That does not mean I excuse what happens in Chinese province Tibet.

But none of us have enough info. From here it seems that both sides are guilty. Monks for starting riots and Government for not being able to deal with this problem without provocating foreign press to start all this fever. What Chinese Government have done and still are doing is like shaking red cloth in front of an angry bull. But Chinese civilisation is more than 5000 years old - they know their ways better... :hmm:
History will tell...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by peterloo

As what you've pointed out, a rumor. It's best not to spread rumors these days, as they might lead to misunderstandings. You may, still, provide proof to show that this is a genuine action taken.

Good morning, that was a jo-hoke!

Looks like Beijing offered some additional benefit to IOC and in return, IOC now bans any public statements in the camps. In that case, BOTH IOC and Beijing seems to be engaging in some sort of hidden transactions

Yes, the IOC is very good in that. For money you can buy almost everybody in the West. as I just said in another thread: its not so much about the interest of sport, but the business interest of the IOC. It does not serve the sport - sport serves the IOC.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

From here it seems that both sides are guilty. Monks for starting riots

Yes. How can one dare after decades of supression, genocide, 1- 1.2 million people killed, torture, to start tryiong to use an opportunity to win western medias attention to raise awareness what crime china has commited in Tibet, and still does?

and Government for not being able to deal with this problem without provocating foreign press to start all this fever.

You mean the foreign press that has been completely expelled from Tibet so that only the chinese police'S cameras shall see what is happening, or do you mean that foreign press that shows film material that gets secretely smuggled out of china and was filmed often at maximum danger for the person holding the camera?

What Chinese Government have done and still are doing is like shaking red cloth in front of an angry bull. But Chinese civilisation is more than 5000 years old - they know their ways better... :hmm:
History will tell...

relativistic nonsens, it sounds to me. I am quite aware of how old chinese culture is. I have been educated by principles and ideas some of which have their origin in Chinese culture. the highest most essential form of Buddhism - as I perceive it - has it'S roots in China. I am also aware of this thing that is called culture revolution, where Chinese killed at least 7 million other chinese, and millions were sent into reeducation camps, and the old ways of Chinese culture were tried to be rewritten or deleted. The china of Mao is by far not the logical consequence of 5000 years old traditions, but a violant warping caused by a communist ideologist and brutal tyrant: it was a rape of Chinese cultural history. when you kill every sixth person in a to-be-subjugated region and commit genocide and massmurder and torture monks for carrying a picture of the Dalai Lama with them under their robes by putting wires through their teeths and genitals and then send electricity through them until they have almost lost their brain and their flesh is smoking, or burn women's breasts until a black stump is all that is left becasue they violated the state discipline when demanding freedom, then you can hardly link this up to cultural heights of china like the philosophy o Kung Tse, or Mong Tse, Chuang Tse or Lao Tse. It also gets not compensated by the excellent chinese cuisine. It is and remains to be barbarism - cold, brutal, inhumane.

[Dmitry Markov]

Yes. How can one dare after decades of supression, genocide, 1- 1.2 million people killed, torture, to start tryiong to use an opportunity to win western medias attention to raise awareness what crime china has commited in Tibet, and still does?

But there was a trend to dialoque last years. And monks have chosen very good moment to ruin this in one hour.

You mean the foreign press that has been completely expelled from Tibet so that only the chinese police'S cameras shall see what is happening, or do you mean that foreign press that shows film material that gets secretely smuggled out of china and was filmed often at maximum danger for the person holding the camera?

No, I mean unprofessional state security agency work (sorry I don't know how it is called in China). They should have foreseen this and take measures. Very poor agenture work. Instead Government has acted just like monks (and who is behind them) wanted them to - the worst possible way to solve such things. If state security worked better there would have been no need to expell foreign press and there would have been no violence film material to smuggle.

relativistic nonsens, it sounds to me.

In that case I meant that during their 5000 history "culture revolution" was not the only one period of massacre. There have been periods of dissolvation with massacre and periods of centralisation again with massacre.

I am afraid that if now separatism in China would be supported (and Tibet is not only one problem province - there are Sintzan-Uygur Authonomy and other provinces) - it may brake out into civil war with predictable millions of dead and unpredictable consequences of civil war in a country which has nukes. And this country is a neighbour of mine

[Trex]

Some good points there, but I do have a couple of exceptions to what you have said.

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

And monks have chosen very good moment to ruin this in one hour.

Very true. China is in the world's eye right now - what better time to raise otherwise untouchable grievances?

No, I mean unprofessional state security agency work (sorry I don't know how it is called in China). They should have foreseen this and take measures. Very poor agenture work. Instead Government has acted just like monks (and who is behind them) wanted them to - the worst possible way to solve such things. If state security worked better there would have been no need to expell foreign press and there would have been no violence film material to smuggle.

Sorry, cannot agree. This seems to be difference in basic philosophical views of the world and how it should work. If I understand you correctly, you are saying tha the biggest problem in Tibet was the failure of the Organs to completely repress all protest. (If I am wrong, please correct me.) To myself and many others in those nations with long traditions of the individual having unalienable rights, the main problem in Tibet is the PRC's having created a situation in which massive security operations are necessary in the first place.

As a general rule, any nation with "People's" in its title is not run by or for the people. Any country with the word "Democratic" in its title isn't. Combine them (as in "People's Democratic Republic of ...") and the place is a nightmare.

BTW, their police force (one of them) is the Public Security Bureau. One observer who lived there some years ago stated later that mentioning the PSB in a conversation over dinner was the social equivalent of loudly belching.

In that case I meant that during their 5000 history "culture revolution" was not the only one period of massacre. There have been periods of dissolvation with massacre and periods of centralisation again with massacre.

Very true. In every country with a long history, this has indeed happened. However, it is one thing to look at old history and quite another to look at it happening in one's lifetime.

I am afraid that if now separatism in China would be supported (and Tibet is not only one problem province - there are Sintzan-Uygur Authonomy and other provinces) - it may brake out into civil war with predictable millions of dead and unpredictable consequences of civil war in a country which has nukes. And this country is a neighbour of mine

During the Brixton riots in the UK (yes, democracies have riots, too), there was a lovely graffitio on a wall: Violence is the voice of those who cannot be heard! The PRC used to reject the outside world and all of its influences. It has taken the major step of allowing some capitalism and its quality of life has risen dramatically - for some. It has allowed freer contact with the outside world, allowing its citizens to see for themselves (to a limited extent) that things can be better, more free than they are.

Having put the pressure cooker on the stove, there are a number of possible outcomes: 1) The pot explodes. (Bad. You are correct to be worried about the violent dissolution of a nuclear power next door.) 2) The heat is turned down, lowering the pressure. 3) The lid is taken off, allowing the pressure to escape. Options 2 and 3 have been rejected by Beijing. Instead, they have gone for Option 4 - a thicker, stronger pot. That may work for a while, but not forever. Sooner or later they are going to have to do something asides from beat heads. The sooner that happens, the less change there is of a massive explosion.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

No, I mean unprofessional state security agency work (sorry I don't know how it is called in China). They should have foreseen this and take measures. Very poor agenture work. Instead Government has acted just like monks (and who is behind them) wanted them to - the worst possible way to solve such things. If state security worked better there would have been no need to expell foreign press and there would have been no violence film material to smuggle.

I see. Subjugating another people and annihilating it's culture is fine and okay as long as medias cannot take note of it and the suppression happens secretly. Not the injustice is the problem, but the world learning about it taking place.

the monks choosed the time that gave them an opportunity, and that opportunity was Olympia. I can't blame them since they fight for their freedom. Not every Tibetan agrees after half a century of oppression with the Dalai Lama anymore that there should be one nation, but local autonomy for Tibet. the Dalai Lama did not say that because he is convinced of the justice in it. He started to say this because he realises that the Chinese will never give up their occupation and landtaking of Tibet. that he is realistic does not make the Chinese action any less criminal and illegal.

BTW, do we really know it were the monks starting it? There is a non-religious strong faction in Tibet, too. Beijing, a truly materialistic power, hates religion and monks, and in case of Tibet it hates them even more. That they say it were the monks starting the riots, means nothing. They also demonize the Dalai Lama and accuse him of propagating violence and aggression. Can't become any more absurd. One could as well accuse ghandi of having started a war against the peaceful British occupiers who crushed the pacifistic protesters at those salt mines (name I forgot).

I am afraid that if now separatism in China would be supported (and Tibet is not only one problem province - there are Sintzan-Uygur Authonomy and other provinces) - it may brake out into civil war with predictable millions of dead and unpredictable consequences of civil war in a country which has nukes. And this country is a neighbour of mine

If they behave there as brutal as they do in Tibet after they occupied it, it is no wonder that people want to get rid of them, hm? Remind you, it is a genocide taking place in Tibet that has cost the life of every sixth Tibetan so far. And tibet was sovereign and independent before the Chinese marched in, so one can hardly argue this is about a state trying to prevent falling apart. that would be like saying a thief just has stolen what belonged to him anyway.

Again, I see myself agreeing with Trex.

[郑现莉]

For a free China!

[peterloo]

Welcome to subsim, 郑现莉

I'm not sure whether you're Chinese, but based on your name, I guess, you're a Chinese living in mainland China.

I'm not going to attack you today, I'm a Chinese as well. Yet, I perfer English to Chinese since my Chinese stinks

You've just done a good job. You realize that we need to bring out a free China and bring out democrazy. This is our dream. Loving China is equivalent to fancying democrazy, isn't it?

For the olympia stuff, I don't think we can interfere much, as Hu and Wen makes the decision, not us. Yet, we can send the message across the internet. Just mind you, the censorship is in rife these days. Be very careful. (I live in Hong Kong, so I'm fortunate and I don't face any oppression for what I say)