Bayonets

[Stealth Hunter]

Trex is right. The short and somewhat stout one is definitely made for the K98 bolt-action rifle, standard issue for the German army. The first one appears to be a British sword bayonet for the Lee-Enfield Mk.III.

This is pretty cool. I've got a couple of old bayonets and swords, but I've never really bothered to look into them. My favorite bayonet I'm fairly sure is Japanese (definitely a sword bayonet; has a wavy blade), but I could be wrong on that. Most of the swords I have are not from Germany or Britain, though. I've got a pair that have silver grips/hand-guards that are modeled to reflect the particular style of Indian craftsmanship and another that is a Janissary saber from the 15th Century (or so I was told by my grandfather; don't know if it's true or not).

You've sparked my interest into investigating these weapons more and more. Thanks for the post. This is a really good topic.

[Dronston]

You've sparked my interest into investigating these weapons more and more. Thanks for the post. This is a really good topic.

You're welcome, and thanks for your reply.

Again, markings would help if you can find any.

Will try to post the markings later today, first I need to recharge my camera's batteries

[Dronston]

OK, here are the markings.
Sorry for the poor quality pics, cannot get close / sharp enough.

Top (British): Symbol that looks like a swastika (odd enough) with one leg missing and a small arrow beneath it. (the rest is damage) No further markings on any part.

Bottom: (German): 510 b and on the scabbard 6517 d No further markings on any part.




Top (British): you can see a crown and in the darker part of the blade some symbols- one says 43 or 45 and one looks like a 5 but may also be just some damage. No further markings on any part.

Bottom: (German): 42 cof and on the scabbard 44 crs No further markings on any part. Found out that 42 cof means its manufactured by Carl Eickhorn Waffenfabrik, Solingen, I presume in 1942. The scabbard was made by Paul Weyersberg und Co, Solingen I presume in 1944. (http://www.donet.com/~mconrad/bcncode.htm)

[Trex]

Haven't my reference books available right now, but that tiny arrow confirms the one as British (or at least Commonwealth). The broad arrow goes back hundreds of years, to the time when certain trees, because of their straightness and size, were reserved for Royal Navy masts before they were cut by marking them with it. The particular symbol was selected as distinctive, very British and conventient (just six axe strokes). Virtually all British military equipment is marked with the broad arrow.

So it is indeed an SMLE.

More to follow when my books surface. Hope this helps.

More thoughts: The British stopped making the SMLE in 1943 and switched over to the Enfield No. 4 (which used a completely different bayonet). It is possible that they kept manufacturing SMLE bayonets and such to support those rifles still in service.

However, both Australia and India made the SMLE throughout WW2 and for some time after, so the '43' or '45' could indicate a date. Further, the SMLE was issued to troops from across the empire and it would not be surprising to find that the local govt stamped its eqpt with a distinctive marking. The style of crown indicates that it was made pre-1952 or so. Final option - Khyber Pass copy. Unlikely, but still possible.

My gut feel? Indian manufacture, with the 'swastika' a manufacturer's mark from a small factory or even cottage industry. I stand to be corrected on that. It's a pity the markings are so blurred.

My brain tells me:
1st- British
2nd- British
3rd- German

[Dronston]

Originally Posted by Trex

Haven't my reference books available right now, but that tiny arrow confirms the one as British (or at least Commonwealth). The broad arrow goes back hundreds of years, to the time when certain trees, because of their straightness and size, were reserved for Royal Navy masts before they were cut by marking them with it. The particular symbol was selected as distinctive, very British and conventient (just six axe strokes). Virtually all British military equipment is marked with the broad arrow.

So it is indeed an SMLE.

More to follow when my books surface. Hope this helps.

More thoughts: The British stopped making the SMLE in 1943 and switched over to the Enfield No. 4 (which used a completely different bayonet). It is possible that they kept manufacturing SMLE bayonets and such to support those rifles still in service.

However, both Australia and India made the SMLE throughout WW2 and for some time after, so the '43' or '45' could indicate a date. Further, the SMLE was issued to troops from across the empire and it would not be surprising to find that the local govt stamped its eqpt with a distinctive marking. The style of crown indicates that it was made pre-1952 or so. Final option - Khyber Pass copy. Unlikely, but still possible.

My gut feel? Indian manufacture, with the 'swastika' a manufacturer's mark from a small factory or even cottage industry. I stand to be corrected on that. It's a pity the markings are so blurred.

Thanks for your effort.
I think it's pretty certain now we correctly indentified the British bayonet as a SMLE.
I don't think it would be a replica, these two bayonets have always been together (I'm pretty certain) since at least '45. I think I saw the "swastika" symbol on some other "real" bayonets as well.

I also got confirmation from Ralph who runs the site mentioned in my first post. I sent him an email with the same picture and he confirmed that my identifications were right. He als confirmed that the leather frog on the British bayonet actually belongs to the German one.

Datum: 07/04/08 01:48 AM
> > > Van: "Ralph Cobb"
> > > Aan: "Dronston"
> > > CC:
> > > Onderwerp : Re: Can you help me identify?
> > >
> > >Dronston,
> > >
> > > You're right on all counts. The bayonets are as you have identified them. The frog is German, for the M1884/98 III. I usually store the frog separate from the bayonet. Very nice pieces!
> > >
> > >
> > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Ralph E. Cobb
> > > www.worldbayonets.com
> > > 98k Bayonet Collectors' Network (BCN) Member NRA Endowment Life
> > > Member C & R FFL

So I guess I have all my questions answered. Their actual story and how they came into the hands of Dutch resistance will always be unknown. Pity.

One extra thing: I actually got a third item with these bayonets, claimed to be also from the same period and circumstances -- brass knuckels, but made (pressed?) from aluminium (very light). I did no research whatsoever. Any comments on that one?




It's not a big item. I'm not a big guy (1.75 metres) and have a normal size hands but can only just get my fingers in and it feels that if I would hit someone with it I would break all my fingers because the back rest (?) doesn't give enough support.



Thanks again all.