New Olympic sport - Bashing Beijing!

[GlobalExplorer]

Its all well comrades.

These ljudy (people) were acting out of their own accord - nobody forced them to talk bad about tovarysh Putin. If you're not going to complain, nothing can happen to you. You will be safe.

So we need not fear. The party doesn't harm people without a reason.

[Dmitry Markov]

However, "freedom" is something in much shorter supply in Russia with the restrictions placed upon its media, and the way in which the Kremlin has its dirty hands on every single area of the economy and everyday life.

Absolutely nonsense! I've never ever met any person who have felt "dirty hands of Kremlin" on "every single area of his/her everyday life". Or please tell what you mean by saying about those "areas".

Seems you just cannot take into account that there ARE people who are every single day talking VERY bad of Putin and they are not in jail, they are not beeing shot into neck, and what's more - nobody is going to kill them or put into jail. That's what I've been trying to tell you in my last post.

By the way I am not trying to say that I have nothing to complain. Taxes law, corrupt officials (but not every one of them are corrupt), "point building" that changes well-known faces of our cities (especially Moscow and Saint Petersburg, but that is not only Russian problem - I saw the same process in Kiev too), inept Ministry of Culture and so on... But not the lack of freedom

I cannot agree with you on that case. Though I am open for constructive discussion.

Best Regards!

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Seems you just cannot take into account that there ARE people who are every single day talking VERY bad of Putin and they are not in jail, they are not beeing shot into neck, and what's more - nobody is going to kill them or put into jail.

Dmitry Markov, as you seem to be at least a bit naive, I have collected some links for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Po..._assassination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexand...enko_poisoning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Kasparov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky

[Dmitry Markov]

From the beginning:

1. Politkovskaya was a renegade. While our soldiers were fighting with bandits in Chechnya she wrote tones of pro-Basaev's crap. She was talking about "brave highland warriors who fight for their independence". Look if your country has a fight somwhere you would support your army or the enemy? IMHO the guys who choose the last may be of some interest for qualified psychiatrist. After her conduct during war in Chechnya she couldn't have been taken seriously.

2. Litvinenko was a renegade too. He was selling his country. He was corrupt agent and his turning towards Berezovsky shows that completely (As you don't know maybe Berezovsky was one of those whose money helped to rise Doudaev's regime in Chechnya). But I think that if our spec ops have really retired him - they should have done it with more elegance - not to make such a noise of this operation. And better - he should have been taken back home to stand before Tribunal. Only thing I can blame our State in this case - for being ineffective in gathering investigation materials. But maybe this was impossible because Litvinenko was not a lamb - being criminal he was also a trained agent and and he wiped out his tracks as well as he could. In any case he has broken oath and there is an oppinion that he has got what he deserved.

3. As for Garry Casparov... Have you ever read what he says? It would be interesting to know oppinion of competent psychiatrist on his account too. And of course I cannot respect the subject who, pretending to be Russian leader, speaks English on his meetings... Whom he is adressing to? He and the likes of him would never gain any moral support until they would offer a constructive program. The only thing they do is their stupid "marсhes of discordant" (марши несогласных). They only criticise and criticise but when they would tell us how they are going to make our life better?

4. Hodorkovsky case is more complicated and there are some questions to our State. First of all he is most likely a thief and he is in jail for being thief. His company is guilty in concealment of taxable income in trilions of rubles (billions of dollars). What is worse they were arranging assasinations of concurents and mere people who were somehow preventing them from obtaining more concessions. What I don't like in this history? Well Hodorkovsky is definitely not the only one who gathered his wealth in such an unjust way. But he was the only one who went to jail. Why? Because he tried to make his way into state power. He began to buy local officials of higher and higher rank. Everyone in big business does it but Hodorkovsky has overstepped some line that in couple with his being №1 Russian billionaire made him an easy object for show trial. The other two evil ones Berezovsky and Gusinsky (strangely all their last names are ended with "sky" ) are unfortunately abroad. But what for the others who are home? They are not being facing the trial. Does that mean that the State made a deal with criminals of first wave of our new billionaires? I would never believe that our Office of Public Prosecutor couldn't have found any materials about tax concealment or fraud to imprison the remnants if it had its will. So we see double standart approach But again we cannot blame the State for imprisoning Hodorkovsky. We can blame it for he is the only one.

Another interesting thing is for dealing with those "marсhes of discordant". First stone flies into garden of the ones who organize those marches. a) Their choice of the places for their flash mobs could have been more rational. Now it seems that they try to do everything to annoy people around: instead of coming into a park or some other place where they would not disturb everyday life they choose to come to central streets and squares, blocking the traffic, dropping garbage. They never ask for permission to do all that and they cry about end of free speach when officials try to stop them.
b) There are is one simple rule of making flash mobs that are being taught at schools on Fundamentals of Survival lessons (there is such object in Russian schools) : an action should never change its format. If it is a meeting - it should remain a meeting, if it is a march - it should remain a march. What was made in St Petersburg: at first it was announced that an action would be a meeting. The public gathered, than they suddenly decided that they want to march the streets... Police is trying to stop the crowd, the crowd cries that the Police are fascists (you need to have in mind that for Russian to be called fascist is a very hard offence because every family have suffered a loss in WWII) and that they are "feedom fighters". The Police are getting angry and then it comes to blows.

And here flies a stone into the garden of local officials:

a) The number of Police that are engaged (about 1000) is twice as more than the number of march members (about 500).
b) The type of Police forces is wrong - thay are OMON (Police special forces). They come in full ammunition with helmets heavy bucklets and they stand there under hot sun rays for hours during what was going to be there holiday.
When stupid march leaders are calling for crowd to go into streets from the square officials make a decision to block the entrance into square so the crowd could not brake through into the city.
You must take into account that this is a holiday and there are a lot of common people in the square too who are not taking part in the action and now they are blocked along with the flash mob guys.
Then action leaders are calling for their listeners to force the lines of OMON. They try to do so calling the OMON "fascists". After that the fight begins in which suffer innocent people who weren't let to get out of there.
Seems that both sides were acting to inflict a vexation from the common people. And they both had made a lot of mistakes.

Best Regards!

[Dmitry Markov]

I've been writing previous post being in hurry so I would edit it a bit There maybe some grammar mistakes. Sorry.

Best Regards

[GlobalExplorer]

Nothing wrong with your grammar from what I can tell.

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

1. Politkovskaya was a renegade .. After her conduct during war in Chechnya she couldn't have been taken seriously.

The question here was not whether you want to take her her seriously or not.

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

2. Litvinenko was a renegade too.

So you mean it was a necessary secret service operation? Then I must say it was very badly executed.

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

3. As for Garry Casparov...

Ok here I must admit to you that no one here - including myself - knows what he actually says. The fact that he is "pro West" - which we usually associate with positive things like free speech, fair elections and free trade - is enough that people laybel him with the "good guy" stereotype.

However, I assume someone with his intelligence should be taken seriously.

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

4. Hodorkovsky case .. So we see double standart approach.

"Double standard" is a fitting term. That was a main criticism of the new russia from the beginning.

As to the марши несогласных. You lost me on this one. And I would like to warn your arguments are exactly the same that have been used every time a regime wants to suppress the demonstration right (and thereby freedom of speech): that the demonstrators started the violence on innocent people etc.

Anyway. I agree with you that we western believe too much what the TV tells us about Russia, and the TV works on extreme simplifications. But at least our TV is independent, at least politically (economically it is not).

But maybe you have misconceptions about us, too. We are not only thinking in black white terms about your country. Of course a lot people here are bashing Putin because we think he made the elections a farce. But we also cannot deny that he is one of the most successful russian politicians ever. And that possibly he acts on the rationale that it's better to keep power by undemocratic means, lest it is wrung from his hands by the people who are not acting in the interest of the russian people. Like in ancient Greece a dictator was often seen as the saviour of a city. The verdict on Putin is not spoken, and I must admit I always found him a damn impressive man. Is that what you mean?

In fact it's a pity we did not start an own threat. I would actually find it interesting to discuss about Putins Russia, state cult like the наши movement, and such things.

Пока!

[GlobalExplorer]

And on second thought, you are doing yourself a bad service if you stand in defense of China.

No one, I repeat no one would discuss a boycott if the Olympics were in Moscow. The problems in China are on a completely different scale - in China a human life isn't worth anything - it really makes no sense to throw Russia and China in the same pot. Even the Soviet regime was disgusted by chinese methods as far back as the 60's - which led to the famous schism in the red camp.

[bookworm_020]

IT doesn't pay to be a torch bearer for this games

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pro...420237004.html