Next SH.....as WE want it.

[Blood_splat]

Well radar I think should have been researched a little more. I think there was an instrument that gave you the range. Oh yeah life boats blowing up like they have a ton of tnt on them lol.

Basicly all the things LukeFF said

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

1. i want to cook my meal
2. i want to wash my socks
3. and damn i want a bog with all the buttons working!

No i mean common guys. How much does it have to be "real". After all - this game is not about to simulate everything. You are in a role of a comander. And the comander does not care about dive planes or exact buyauncy managment and trim control. And he does not have to navigate by stars. This is what the crew is good for.

So ask yourself. Do you want a sub comander simulation - or do you want just an empty sub where you have to do every thing on yourself?

what this game is realy missing is better AI, wulfpacks and being able to take part in historical operations.

While i think that this sort of argument has some weight to it, on the other hand i think a complete simulation should enable you to have multiple settings.

Take navigation - there should be three settings for players to accept the difficulty they want

a) current style GPS
b) asking your officer to get a fix by celestial navigation - the accuracy of this should be weather dependent as well as on the experience/exhaustion of the crewmen, and still there should be inherent inaccuracy in your position.
c) do it yourself.

In addition you ought to get an idea of location by fixing on the bearing to Radio Honolulu for example.

In addition the effects of current and wind could be better slimulated. You should still be able to hold a course, while external effects bring a deflection on your course, rather than the present effect of causing a change to your rudder, although i guess there is some effect on that too.

But if one was to imply that the GPS is the only sensible solution, that would be silly. The GPS wasn't invented until the 90s. Even in the 70s and 80s, nuke boats had to fix their position through celestial nav using the observation scope. - and only one person was looking through the scope to do it, so it might as well be you if you want to.

Another thing i'd like is an authentic bearing plotting system. Putting in your own plots is laborious. If you could send bearing, time, aob and range as you calculate them to be direct to be plotted on a map and/or in-game maneuvering board, without having to mess around with labouriously doing it yourself - this would be great and marvellously simluate the relationship between the guy at teh periscope (you) and the lads in the tracking party.

It would look like the actual US examples in this post here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...6&postcount=13

joe

[DeepIron]

One of the best sims ever IMO... 1996 Jane's Ah-64 Longbow.
What made it a great sim? Details, man, details. You really had to have your kit together not only to fly the AH-64 and it's armament, but to understand the intel, rules of engagement and battle plans... You had control over almost every aspect of the sim. Portions of the manual came directly from Jane's Military database.

Coming back from a successful mission was a very gratifying experience if you lived...

I'd love to see an incarnation of SH that had that kind of detail. The modders are getting there, but the AI, Wolfpacking and some other aspects are in the core code and not reachable by mods.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Sonarman

I and many others, judging by my recent Subsim poll ,its counterpart on the Ubi Forum & the huge populartity of the SHIII schnellboot mod, I suspect would actually prefer to have a surface command game next time in the style of "Destroyer Command" or the great old Microprose title "Task Force 1942".

OH how I hope they're paying attention to these. I keep hearing complaints about a surface action game akin to "player can't act on his own!" and "no stealthz, always on the run from teh planz". But in all honesty, that's just making excuses. Where would we get if just sat on our thumbs crying into our beer about challenges in gameplay design? Off the top of my head I can already think of numerous ways of dealing with the outlined problems.

If the devs/ Ubisoft ever think about going down that road they should check out this fantastic 9 page article from simHQ, written by a former naval officer about the strengths and weaknesses of the original "Destroyer Command" game and his thoughts on what would a good sequel would contain.

I liked his article but occasionally thought he was nitpicking. I like a realistic sim, but I ALSO like a sim to be intuitive. I want a realistic game, but I ALSO want developers to acknowledge that no matter what they dream of, it IS a video game. The only way the player can interact with the world is through a screen, keyboard, and mouse. Maybe a joystick if he's lucky. Voice input if he's in good standing with God or something. But none of this equates to the efficiency of real world control.

That's why I get annoyed at games like Red Orchestra that tout themselves as "uber realistic". In RO they actually expect the player to take into account the WEIGHT OF THE GUN as he fires it! Since the changing center of balance will actually change the aimpoint of the gun on the sight! This is just insane. I'm not ACTUALLY HOLDING THE GUN. So why punish the player for something totally out of his control or even influence? Let the avatar "handle" things like that. You can't tell me a trained or experienced soldier wouldn't subconsiously know to compensate for something like that.

Or RO's tanks. They again claim "ultra realism" because they force players to use multi crew. But again, it's not realistic, it's just annoying. A real tank crew, one with experience and TRAINING, would act as a single entity. That's why if you were to ask me who's tanks were more realistic in that aspect, Forgotten Hope's or Red Orchestra's, i'd say FH. A good sim is both realistic AND intuitive. A sim that is diffcult to control or unwieldy is ironically not realistic.

[gimpy117]

how bout WWI??

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

That's why I get annoyed at games like Red Orchestra that tout themselves as "uber realistic". In RO they actually expect the player to take into account the WEIGHT OF THE GUN as he fires it! Since the changing center of balance will actually change the aimpoint of the gun on the sight! This is just insane. I'm not ACTUALLY HOLDING THE GUN. So why punish the player for something totally out of his control or even influence? Let the avatar "handle" things like that. You can't tell me a trained or experienced soldier wouldn't subconsiously know to compensate for something like that.

Ever try to hold a WWII rifle longer than say, 30 seconds? Your arms will tire and your aim will start to sway.

And yes, I'm a real-world soldier.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

What I'd like to see in the next SH game if there ever will be one is full emersion. Walk around from bow to stern, climbing up the ladder to the con tower, watching crew running from the stern to the bow during a crash dive and see the watch crew come sliding down the ladders! And some wild life other than stupid seagulls, like some fish!!! More overall control over the sub. Better AI, as in no more Bernards!! Realistic weather. You know in winter I'd like to see snow falling and not just on the ground. Being able to hide on the bottom. Just throwing out some ideas.

[maerean_m]

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg

What I'd like to see in the next SH game if there ever will be one is full emersion. Walk around from bow to stern, climbing up the ladder to the con tower, watching crew running from the stern to the bow during a crash dive and see the watch crew come sliding down the ladders! And some wild life other than stupid seagulls, like some fish!!! More overall control over the sub. Better AI, as in no more Bernards!! Realistic weather. You know in winter I'd like to see snow falling and not just on the ground. Being able to hide on the bottom. Just throwing out some ideas.

All that is nice, but you have to bring some gameplay to that. You'll get bored after two walks from bow to stern and looking at the fishes.

[maerean_m]

How about this ones:

* Actually rotating 1/3 of the crew when docking and using your renown to keep some of them. And not to get repetitive, the player is asked if he wants to keep just one of the officers that were picked to leave (if any).

* On the long patrols, actually playing chess with one of the officers, in 3D (Ubisoft owns Chessmaster, you know (and is being done in Romania too)).


* When sinking a ship, to be able to rescue some of the men in the boats and gain renown for it. Or even, in one of a hundred cases, learn about an enemy secret (ship routes or whatever).

[joegrundman]

Those ideas rock! Could be the only way to play chess there is!

[maerean_m]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

I like the third idea too, but gaining some intel would be even better if the campaign is fully dynamic and (slightly) influenced by the player's actions (hint).

doh... (translation: obviously)

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by maerean_m

How about this ones:

* Actually rotating 1/3 of the crew when docking and using your renown to keep some of them. And not to get repetitive, the player is asked if he wants to keep just one of the officers that were picked to leave (if any).

* On the long patrols, actually playing chess with one of the officers, in 3D (Ubisoft owns Chessmaster, you know (and is being done in Romania too)).


* When sinking a ship, to be able to rescue some of the men in the boats and gain renown for it. Or even, in one of a hundred cases, learn about an enemy secret (ship routes or whatever).

Yes, yes, and yes!

Also, for the crew, the crew number limits should be split up between the officers and the CPOs, instead of lumping them together like they are now.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by maerean_m

* On the long patrols, actually playing chess with one of the officers, in 3D (Ubisoft owns Chessmaster, you know (and is being done in Romania too)).

A proper algorithmic chess program is going to be very memory-intensive. I would prefer that they use that space for submarine-related developments. Personally, I would rather have a proper sound model, a la Dangerous Waters, in order to have the simulation aspect match the graphics. You should also have to trim dive daily, as salinity should affect the bouyancy of your boat.

[Sonarman]

Originally Posted by maerean_m

All that is nice, but you have to bring some gameplay to that. You'll get bored after two walks from bow to stern and looking at the fishes.

here are some suggestions for gameplay additions...

In The Sound Room
It would be great if more sounds were added to the hydrophone to confuse the issue, also if the light was removed that shows when a contact is being received (makes things a bit too easy), sound detections should be more difficult, biologic noises (whales etc) and more random noise should be introduced. These were included in the ancient SSN21 Seawolf game from EA and were very atmospheric.

In the Radio Room
More functionality should be added to the radio room the player could tune the 3d radio to a certain frequency at a time specified in a code book to recieve operational data/instructions, then have the ability to code/decode messages, nothing too intensive, a routine perhaps similar to that found in the old Mindscape/360 game "Das Boot" would be great.

In The Engine Room.
Some form of engine management game, the ability to monitor oil/air pressure ,dump fuel, check fresh water level, set speed, put engines on/offline etc. Perhaps a circuit based on a generatior/ switchboard arrangement a diagram allowing the rerouting of power functions to restore functionality, connecting cables etc when a generator goes out etc, Start & stop pumps to pump out flooded or counterflood areas.

In the Ward Room
Whilst chess may be too computationally intensive perhaps officers could indulge in poker or blackjack, chequers, or battleship! or click on books on a shelf to study tech/id manuals, read (out of copyright) novels on sub warfare (loaded as txt files) into a template etc

Some more external gameplay ideas for making the world feel a bit more realistic...
Berthing
Berthings should be come more risky, the player must berth, at a specific place inside a "difficult" dock, turning and manouvering his ship in close quarters very carefully to avoid damage, using ropes and spring lines to pull her into place/leave dock, the nautical equivalent of a landing in flight sim.

IceField Navigation
When navigating iceberg areas small growler bergs should be introduced floating around influenced by wind direction, current etc increasing the risk of damage/sinking.

[Platapus]

I would like to see the next generation of sub sims to be more in depth into the operation of the submarine itself.

Design it so you can play the game from different crew positions.

Currently we have the player taking the role of Captain but giving them the chance to temporarily play other crew stations. It has to be temporary as there is no Captain but the player.

I would love to have a sub sim (either US or German) where not only do you have the option of playing Captain but also have the option of playing one of the other crew members and have the AI take over as Captain.

Diving officer is one such interest with me. Instead of just hitting "C" for crash dive, as the subs diving officer I would be responsible for the actual controlled submergence of the sub where I would be in control of all the vents and such. There could be a variance in realism so that the player can actually learn how to dive and surface a sub. There will come a point where the player is doing it at 100%

The plot is another station I would like to immerse myself in. The computer AI gives me the observations and I have to manually make the plot using only the tools available and only using the data given me. Like the diving officer there would be a variance in realism for educational purposes, but ultimately the goal is to be 100%

Most other positions would not be suitable for a game type simulator but these are just a few.

An interesting twist would be that the player would have to qualify for command by moving up from diving officer/plot to Captain.

Be a cooleo way to learn the tradecraft.