Tibet, China and Olympics

[XabbaRus]

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

[Steel_Tomb]

I've been reading the news stories since last night, and really think this is going to end with another massacre. China should never have been given the olympics in the first place, with the countries record on human rights and the manner in which it rules simply goes against everything the olympics are supposed to stand for. I too vote for boycotting the olympics. I doubt it, but I pray that this years olympics are an unmittigated disaster for China. The communist government needs to know there is a line, and that they crossed it a long time ago! The world is pathetic anyway, no one could give a damn about those poor sods being locked up for no reason, if it doesnt include money and trade deals they aren't interested.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

What we should do and what we could do may prove to be two separate things. China simply has become too powerful and influential to simply wave it out. Sad, unfair, bitter - but true. We shouldn'T have started to trade with them many decades ago. This is what brought them into possession of the means (machineries in the main) to become a self-supplying and now partially market-dominating power. That they would not just use our machines, but would study them copy them, and learn how to built industrial machines ba themselves - this conclusion was too much demanded from our bright politicians. The level to which the West already depend on it you can see in this simple link (quoting Joseph Stiglitz in a german essay I had set up some time ago):

From the German:
"One of the bizarre symptoms of globalisaion is that the Chinese, who opposed the Iraq war in the UN, in the end financed this war to a substantial ammount, by using their enormous dollar reserves from the trade surplus with America to buy US treasury bonds. So, a consumer democracy without any savings is borrowing from a market-leninistic state in order to fight terror."

They also use their massive reserves to form close ties with - taken for themselves: unimportant - third world countries whom they helpt pout and lead into dependenca at the same time, "buying" their votes in international councils and commitees that way. I now live by the impression that this use of "soft power" works much more in favour of their future benefit than the use of "hard power" of western nations does for the West's future perspectives. Additonally, we waste these ressources in useless enterprises. they not only save their ressources, but even increase them.

But still I think they should be amongst themselves with their propaganda olympics.

[Steel_Tomb]

I think its possible to get the western powers away from china. we just need to build up our own manufacturing base over the next decade or two, then just slap china in the face and stop all trade with them. their economy depends on exports so much it would just crash. chinese goods are crap anyway, the place is so corrupt. I mean all the cases of lead in kids toys must have done some damage.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

I think its possible to get the western powers away from china. we just need to build up our own manufacturing base over the next decade or two, then just slap china in the face and stop all trade with them. their economy depends on exports so much it would just crash. chinese goods are crap anyway, the place is so corrupt. I mean all the cases of lead in kids toys must have done some damage.

Oh?

There is no cheat code for "just" rebuilding the manufacturing basis. It needs to be financed, and that process is a complex thing with billions of intricacies. The current crisis at stockmarkets is not all for nothing, and once national industries today are acting as global, indepednant actors and no longer necessarily obey the ruling of national governments - it's more the other way around these years. - "Just" slap china in the face? Fact is that chinse economy is self-supplying and autark in all reghards that dirctly affect the survivability of the Chinese people, which of course especially means the agricultural sector. Their one problem is oil, like for us, but they have far moire money reserves to pay for it, plus they have close ties to many oil-producing countries inclduing the OPEC, and china can use the anti-Wetsern ressentiments in many Muslim oil-producing countries and Venezuela to work to their advantage. - Stopping all trade with them? The huge corporations do not ask for your permission to do so, you know. They have made many investem,ents, and want to see profit for that. sooner or later the Chinese will freeze many of them out and take possession of what they left behind, they already have established this as common practice, since many years. - Finally, quality, I have to say chinese goods slightly but surely imporve their quality, and in some fields they are already competing with international standards. The toys you mentioned: to a considerable ammount they were like they were due to design plans given to them from - their American orderer, Mattel. anyhow, these problems may have triggered some hyped attention, but in no way they are of the ammount that it does any damage to China'S trade and economical interests.

In other words: you understimate them, and you overestimate our own options.

The major problems they have: overaging of society due to the one-child-policy. Massive environmental pollution and poisened food. the major advanatge they have: unlimited quantities of low-wage workers, autarky regarding essential supplies for daily living of population. Monumental dollar reserves to be used as a weapon. Rapid decreasing of gap between their technological standard, and ours. An authoritative government that is not really challenged by the population. An understanding that their state-controlled economy model can profit from implementing certain principles of market economy. A rapidly increasing power of their military, of which some analysts say it already has the capacity to deny foreign navies entrance into China's local maritime sphere of interest. a massive alliance of small nations that in the UN and other bodies could be told to rally with China, and against the West.

I think we missed the time window to mess with the Chinese. We can't get them econo0mically, but they can get us. We cannot get them militarily. We cannot get them fincially, but they can get us. And they can strike the international stockmarket whenever they want - or let the mere unspoken threat of this work in their favour.

So what is left that "just" needs to be done to teach them...? - With one hint you are right, though. We cannot start by confronting them. We must start by bringing our own house in order and storm-prove. But that is a problem for Europe. And an even greater problem for America, which is depending on living on tick beyond all reason and sanity. This is not the 40s and 50s, and they will not come back

[3Jane]

Some graffiti left by former residents during the olympic preparations.

[Steel_Tomb]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Oh?

There is no cheat code for "just" rebuilding the manufacturing basis. It needs to be financed, and that process is a complex thing with billions of intricacies. The current crisis at stockmarkets is not all for nothing, and once national industries today are acting as global, indepednant actors and no longer necessarily obey the ruling of national governments - it's more the other way around these years. - "Just" slap china in the face? Fact is that chinse economy is self-supplying and autark in all reghards that dirctly affect the survivability of the Chinese people, which of course especially means the agricultural sector. Their one problem is oil, like for us, but they have far moire money reserves to pay for it, plus they have close ties to many oil-producing countries inclduing the OPEC, and china can use the anti-Wetsern ressentiments in many Muslim oil-producing countries and Venezuela to work to their advantage. - Stopping all trade with them? The huge corporations do not ask for your permission to do so, you know. They have made many investem,ents, and want to see profit for that. sooner or later the Chinese will freeze many of them out and take possession of what they left behind, they already have established this as common practice, since many years. - Finally, quality, I have to say chinese goods slightly but surely imporve their quality, and in some fields they are already competing with international standards. The toys you mentioned: to a considerable ammount they were like they were due to design plans given to them from - their American orderer, Mattel. anyhow, these problems may have triggered some hyped attention, but in no way they are of the ammount that it does any damage to China'S trade and economical interests.

In other words: you understimate them, and you overestimate our own options.

The major problems they have: overaging of society due to the one-child-policy. Massive environmental pollution and poisened food. the major advanatge they have: unlimited quantities of low-wage workers, autarky regarding essential supplies for daily living of population. Monumental dollar reserves to be used as a weapon. Rapid decreasing of gap between their technological standard, and ours. An authoritative government that is not really challenged by the population. An understanding that their state-controlled economy model can profit from implementing certain principles of market economy. A rapidly increasing power of their military, of which some analysts say it already has the capacity to deny foreign navies entrance into China's local maritime sphere of interest. a massive alliance of small nations that in the UN and other bodies could be told to rally with China, and against the West.

I think we missed the time window to mess with the Chinese. We can't get them econo0mically, but they can get us. We cannot get them militarily. We cannot get them fincially, but they can get us. And they can strike the international stockmarket whenever they want - or let the mere unspoken threat of this work in their favour.

So what is left that "just" needs to be done to teach them...? - With one hint you are right, though. We cannot start by confronting them. We must start by bringing our own house in order and storm-prove. But that is a problem for Europe. And an even greater problem for America, which is depending on living on tick beyond all reason and sanity. This is not the 40s and 50s, and they will not come back

I'm no expert in economics, I was speaking in general. If possible, we need to cut away what china uses which is its cheap labour for foreign companies. Cut away that and the economy could possibly collapse in China. I also said that it will be decades, maybe even 30 - 40 years before the west can take on china in terms of infrastructure and a manufacturing base. Personally I hate China, I think that the world has been weak, foolish and damned right ignorant in its dealings with what is essentially a dictatorship participating in the boarder-line ethnic cleansing in Tibet, and massacre of any and all opposition to the Communist regime. I hope that this years Olympia is a complete disaster, biggest in the history of the Olympics. I hope to see wide spread political turmoil in China, simply because the world has to make a stand to this barbaric regime.

Possible? Maybe. Am I talking complete crap? Quite possibly. I just get very angry when a country which has so much blood on its hands can be so prosperous.

[XabbaRus]

AFAIK no UK athlete has no to sign a gag order.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

AFAIK no UK athlete has no to sign a gag order.

You may be wrong there:

10th of February this year:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...e_id=1770&ct=5

British Olympic chiefs are to force athletes to sign a contract promising not to speak out about China's appalling human rights record – or face being banned from travelling to Beijing.

The move – which raises the spectre of the order given to the England football team to give a Nazi salute in Berlin in 1938 – immediately provoked a storm of protest.

The controversial clause has been inserted into athletes' contracts for the first time and forbids them from making any political comment about countries staging the Olympic Games.

It is contained in a 32-page document that will be presented to all those who reach the qualifying standard and are chosen for the team. From the moment they sign up, the competitors – likely to include the Queen's granddaughter Zara Phillips and world record holder Paula Radcliffe – will be effectively gagged from commenting on China's politics, human rights abuses or illegal occupation of Tibet.

(...)

Also:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/10/nolympics110.xml
Athletes face Olympic ban for criticising China

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SPORT/02/10/olympics.britain/
British Olympic team told silence is golden

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11488&size=A
Beijing applauds the gag order on athletes. Great Britain is reconsidering it

And also this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/7237227.stm
Olympic gag row leads to review

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

I'm no expert in economics, I was speaking in general. If possible, we need to cut away what china uses which is its cheap labour for foreign companies.

How? Paying our own workers even less? That means total social collapse of our siceities, and probabaly civil war.

Cut away that and the economy could possibly collapse in China.

no, it would slow them down due to losses in export. But they are perfectly survivable by their own, regarding the basic supply of their population. And by their enormous dollar reserves they could heavily retaliate. This is an almost biblical vulnerability of the US. that this allowed to continue, and to even wieden, and not sealing this archulkles heel, is something that tells me that some major minds in Washington have no strategic understanding at all. That is like not seing the link between the Iraq war, today'S oil price, and the massive blowback the war created for internal ameircan policies, finances, and social system.

I also said that it will be decades, maybe even 30 - 40 years before the west can take on china in terms of infrastructure and a manufacturing base.

Again my question: how? Even cheaper workers? As a matter of fact, our social structures alrerady are in desintegration, and middle class slowly but increaisngly collapsing due to - in germany - every decreasing purchasing power of private households: since over ten years, wage rises did not even compensate inflation, not to mention taxes, energy prices, etc. the way the Fed handles the dollar crisis dramatically helps to increase inflation worldwide (they should be shot for their total incompetence). and the weak dollar already massively damages european exporters, in other words: in order to support the American understanding of how to fund the economy, no matter how uncompetitive some parts of it (especially steel, manufacturing standards are lacking behind 30 years), really is, money is pumped into the market like crazy and is printed as if there is no limit. The ECB's understanbding of what role it has to play, is totally opposed to that of the Fed: the ECB's primary responsibility is to try to control inflation - not to help it increasing, like the Fed's policy does.

Personally I hate China, I think that the world has been weak, foolish and damned right ignorant in its dealings with what is essentially a dictatorship participating in the boarder-line ethnic cleansing in Tibet, and massacre of any and all opposition to the Communist regime.

No need to hate them, let'S keep politics and their damn party seperate from the culture and history. Let's keep 70 years of the party's history and 5 thousand years of history of ancient china two separate things, please. Else you would need to throw a Chuang Tse or Lao Tse, a Hui Neng or huang Po into the same pot with barbars like Mao Tse Tung - and that would be a great loss, really.

I hope that this years Olympia is a complete disaster, biggest in the history of the Olympics.

Agreed.

I hope to see wide spread political turmoil in China,

totally unrealistic. You do not seem to see that the vast majority of Chinese still support the way there country is functioning, and supoport the party - even if eventually wishing for some reforms here, some more livberties there. All in all, the demonstratoing students on the Square of Heavenly Peace were NOT representative for the Chinese population all together.

Possible? Maybe. Am I talking complete crap? Quite possibly. I just get very angry when a country which has so much blood on its hands can be so prosperous.

Has not been any different with any other of the great empires of the past. and in historical comparison, china may often have ruled with strong fist to it's inside, but comopared to other empires, it acted astoundingly peaceful and unagressive concerning it'S outside. In fact it rested so much in itself, that it took this status for granted and become almost defenseless, which was to be seen during the Mongole's storm, and again in the modern era when the Western powers arrived.

Don't let emotions blind you. Courage, reason and determination is good enough, like the Torrero shows. If you allow to decide by emotions, you do not decide, but get decided. In other words: you become the bull ending dead in the arena.

[GlobalExplorer]

I wonder what happens if there is a bloodbath in Tibet.

Boycott the olympics. I am all for it.

[peterloo]

Perhaps all of our points of view are too extreme. Either PRO or CON, and I later regret what I've done. Instead of creating a good discussion atomsphere, I created a hostile environment.

I would like to first apologise to everyone here, since I didn't create an environment nice here. YET, I believe, the discussion would be better if our point of view is "grey" instead of "black" or "white" pose that we take

Finally, I would like to recommend Skybird to put the FOR and AGAINST point of view in his topic so that everyone can have a full view of the event and make a proper judgement.

I have to say sorry since I was being horribly hostile to Skybird and others here in the previous hour. I hope we can correct ourselves and gain a better view of the event.

Someone might say that I'm defending the PRC government, but I would like to say that, if everyone is going mad against PRC, there would be no discussion ~ like in a debate competition, there is a team going FOR and another going AGAINST. Nothing is absolutely right or wrong

Thanks. I hope my act can create a better environment here. Hope that we can gain mutual understanding via putting ourselves into each others' shoes. Thanks again!

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China.

Because we have massive trade with China and very limited trade with Russia.

As scissors cut paper, profit always trumps human rights

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

Kind of difficult when China is the one of the most important trading partners of the US of A and most of the american debt is in chinese hands.
The US of A should lead the world by example, but it is easier to start a war in the middle east for bogus reasons that to say f**k off to China.
Its all about money and real politic.

Europe should just as well have boycotted the games.

[Steel_Tomb]

Its just the case that they can't take them on militarily, not very easy to do it diplomaticly. The UN would have to pass sanctions on China or something, but on what??? Oil imports?