GWX Team - convoy screen thoughts

[MarkShot]

Thanks for the explanation of how the AI works.

I have seen some of this myself, since when practicing in some of my saved checkpoints, I watch the AI on the surface after I am sure that I have given them the slip.

From what I have seen, there are usually only one or two active searchers. I use the word active here not in a sonar sense, but in the sense of driving the situation. The active searchers appear to continuously circle to see if they can pick you up as they make their circular run. If they don't trip over you, then they double back on the spot where they had you and drop another pattern. The other escorts sit more or less still at further distances, I guess either waiting for a report of your updated location or that you might foolishly pass directly underneath them.

I will agree that the AI is a bit weak. In a strategic sense, the addition of escorts doesn't seem to vastly complicate the sub's task of escaping. Having played AOD, going from 4-7 escorts can often be the kiss of death, because they form an impenetrable circle which you will never break out of. Also, they attack much more aggressively and force a great deal more movement to avoid destruction. Thus, you get maybe 10 good runs, before your battery has nothing left. I find that in this game, I can milk a battery for evasion for a very long, long time. Someone had once offered an analysis of I think SH1 and escort behavior showing how each escort contributes to tightening the window of escape such that by the time the 8th escort appears, the window is only about 10% of the circumfrence wide such that it is almost impossible to nail it and escape.

Thanks again. I'll continue to explore the game.

By the way, does SH4 play pretty much the same? I have it and mods installed, but haven't really been playing yet?

[MarkShot]

Bump - see screenshot. Added a place to download the redline mod for those who have been asking. Credit to Rubini as I adapted his work for my own personal needs.

Rubini, if sharing this is not cool, then let me know and I will take it down and stop responding to requests for it.

Thanks.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Thus, you get maybe 10 good runs, before your battery has nothing left. I find that in this game, I can milk a battery for evasion for a very long, long time.

Long battery life is in line with historical capabilities. A Type VIIC U-boat could go about 80 miles at 4 knots, and the Type IX about 65 miles at 4 knots while submerged on a battery charge, so having a flat battery after evading only 10 depth charge patterns seems a bit on the low side to me. Historically, the hunter-killer groups just camped overhead until psychological factors or battle damage forced the boat to the surface or killed it.

By the way, does SH4 play pretty much the same? I have it and mods installed, but haven't really been playing yet?

Hmm... your best bet is probably to check the SH IV fora. IIRC the stock escort behavior isn't very effective, but modders have been tweaking things to make them more effective.

Pablo

[MarkShot]

The point I failed to make is that game play wise (I know nothing of realism), resource management; battery and compressed air have a much greater role in AOD than SH3. I've never really felt up against a wall in SH3 when it comes to battery charge or compressed air. For game play, it makes things more interesting and challenging when trying to decide what to do when time and patience are not the only factors.

[MarkShot]

I should explain. The 10 runs I mention in AOD isn't really for escaping patterns. That's 10 runs assuming that they have your position fixed. Once they have you fixed, running does no good. Your best chance to survive the pattern and break contact happens at the moment of the attack. So, during the attack you run to avoid the pattern, but you also do your most extreme and radical maneuvering, since you have a short window to break contact. You can avoid the pattern using a lot less battery, but for sure after 5-15 minutes they will detect you again. So, you use your battery in an extreme fashion to try to displace during the attack from your known position such that they fail to reacquire you. That's where most of your battery investment goes.

The best policy of course is never to be detected. Shoot and scoot. This is possible in AOD and SH1, since the passive sonar is not nearly the equal of SH3/GWX. So, when you have some distance, you can move at a good clip.

Once detected, the best policy is break contact as quickly as possible. The more escorts that form up in the hunt for you, the more rapidly your chances of survival falls. So, break contact when only the initial elements have you. Unlike SH3/GWX, they will all participate in hunting you down if given time. Also, escorts can easily invest 1-2 hours before sprinting back to the convoy.

Once the hunt for you is in full swing and they have contact, then you crawl along and try a slow feint in a false direction. Your ultimate goal is to try create a situation where multiple escorts immediately following the attack will tend to be grouped in the same quadrant. You will attempt to exploit this by using the temporary gap this leaves with them all clustered in one area. You must get enough distance from where they will resume looking for you before they rebuild the circle. You have to use the cover of the attack and good noise management to get this distance. If you do it right, they will fail to immediatly reacquire and they will fail reacquire when they widen the search after 15-30 minutes.

Both SH1 and AOD have good escort hunting coordination, but AOD is by far the best I have seen. AOD also makes screen penetration quite hard too. Not so much due to the passive sonar sensitivity of SH3/GWX, but their searching behavior which provides much better coverage and randomness. They always have their active sonar on, but unlike SH3 ... there is not a one sensor enabled limit. Visual, passive, and active can all be engaged at once.

Also, both SH1 and AOD truly prevent any accurate measurement of escort distance from your sub. All you have are some volume and pitch factors, screw sounds through the hull, and bearing rate of the contact arc. More deductions are required to play the game of cat and mouse.

Each game has differences in game play and AI strength. Thus, I play all. Beside graphics and sound SH3/GWX does offer game play challenges too. This is why I was eager to get to 1943. I wanted to stop simply counting tonnage and once again feel that my very life might be in jeopardy. For the moment, it seems to be.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

I should explain. The 10 runs I mention in AOD isn't really for escaping patterns. That's 10 runs assuming that they have your position fixed. Once they have you fixed, running does no good. Your best chance to survive the pattern and break contact happens at the moment of the attack. So, during the attack you run to avoid the pattern, but you also do your most extreme and radical maneuvering, since you have a short window to break contact. You can avoid the pattern using a lot less battery, but for sure after 5-15 minutes they will detect you again. So, you use your battery in an extreme fashion to try to displace during the attack from your known position such that they fail to reacquire you. That's where most of your battery investment goes.

That was my assumption. Real U-boats could dodge under water for about a day or so before being forced to surface, barring damage or other factors that could force the U-boat to surface sooner. The convoy escorts were supposed to stay up with the convoy, and so would generally stick around just long enough to ensure the U-boat could no longer threaten the convoy; the hunter-killer teams did not have this constraint, and would latch on to a U-boat until the U-boat sank or surrendered.

This is why I was eager to get to 1943. I wanted to stop simply counting tonnage and once again feel that my very life might be in jeopardy. For the moment, it seems to be.

OK, good. Say, if you're still looking for a challenge in 1944, and keeping to history isn't an issue, then I suppose we could always re-enable the "laser-guided depth charge" capability from stock Silent Hunter III, where the ASW ships always set their depth charges to explode very close to your actual depth....

Pablo

[MarkShot]

I have been doing more testing.

The deep approach followed by a pop-up attack on the outside of the convoy seems very effective. It allowed to use TC substantially without immediately being found. I got my shot taken and was able to get away without being localized. Finally, I was able to go deep and evade while maintaining 3kts.

Shallow approachs when combined with TC invariably met with being localized and pinging. As soon as I upped the TC, the escorts would accelerate towards me. Yuck - but I don't have four hours to approach in 1:1. However, the pop-up looks good.

[bigboywooly]

One of my favourite quotes

During exercises, Walker had evolved a form of attack known as Operation Plaster. It called for three sloops steaming in line abreast to roll depth charges off their sterns. Now he ordered Wild Goose and Kite to join Starling, and the three sloops steamed forward dropping a continuous stream of charges, the naval equivalent of an artillery barrage before an infantry attack. The sea heaved and shook under the impact of the explosions. Twisting and turning and always leaving a trail of charges, the ships plastered the area. In three minutes, 86 depth charges had rocked and shaken the attackers almost as much as it had U-202. The U Boat settled deeper and deeper, the control room crew watched the depth gauge. Down to 700. Much more and the submarine would crack under the tremendous pressure. 750. Poser's eyes would have been fixed on the controls, and his mind listening to the creaks and groans reverberating from the straining hull. 800, the engineer officer's will have warned. 850. Poser snapped out his commands: "Level off and keep her trimmed at 800 feet. Steer due north, 3 knots." Far above, Walker was talking to his officers: "No doubt about it. She's gone deeper than I thought possible, and our depth-charge primers won't explode below 600 feet. Very maddening indeed." He grinned and continued: "Well, long wait ahead. Let's have some sandwiches sent up. We will sit it out. I estimate this chap will surface at midnight. Either his air or batteries will give out by then." It was shortly after noon on June 13. By 8 p.m. Poser had taken several evasive turns without result. He could not shake off his tormentors. At two minutes after midnight his air gave out. He ordered reluctantly, "Take her to the surface." Without any audible warning, U-202 rose fast through the water to surface with bows high in the air. Her crew leaped through the conning tower hatch to man her guns, and Poser shouted for full speed in the hope of outrunning the hunters. On Starling's bridge, the tiny silver conning tower was visible in the moonlight. "Star shell...commence," ordered Walker. One turret bathed the heavens with light. Then came a flashing crash of the first broadside from all six sloops laying a barrage of shells around the target. A dull red glow leaped from behind the conning tower of the U-boat. A dimmed lamp blinked from Starling, and firing ceased while Walker increased speed to ram. Then he saw the jagged stump of the conning tower ablaze and shouted in triumph. U-202 was obviously too damaged to escape. He ran alongside, raking her decks with machine-gun fire and firing a shallow pattern of depth charges that straddled the submarine, enveloping her in smoke and spray. Poser clutched the hot periscope column, drew his revolver and shouted a last order: "Abandon ship! Abandon ship!" The cry was taken up and passed through the U-boat. Poser turned to say goodbye to his officers. But he found they too had all abandoned ship. So he dived into the sea, intend on their reprimand when the war was over. He had fully intended to de rather than be captured. At 12:30 a.m. the battle was over - 16 hours after it had begun.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/walker.html