GWX Team - convoy screen thoughts

Dowly · 03-14-08, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Usually (IMHO) the best method is to lie in wait ahead of the convoy in as good a strategic position as possible to warrant as little movement from the sub as possible.

Ideally, let the convoy come to you

Hear the man, also to add to this, if you like to play it safe turn your boat so it's parallel to the convoy's course. That way the ASDIC has the minimum change of hitting you.

MarkShot · 03-14-08, 02:29 PM

I am going to start working on something new today.

Instead of trying to slip in the front door at 25M at 1kts, I am going to try to come in at about 220M at 1kts. I think this will reduce the chance of ASDIC if I fail to nail the gap in the screen. Also, if they do detect me, it will be good to be deep. If I nail the gap, then I will blow ballast and pop up. Silent, of course.

MarkShot · 03-14-08, 04:00 PM

The pop-up attack is definitely doable. You got about 15 minutes diving and about 15 minutes ascending. For a big convoy, you have adequate time get pass the forward screen and ascend into the middle of it while watching for collisions with the observation scope.

Pablo · 03-14-08, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

The pop-up attack is definitely doable. You got about 15 minutes diving and about 15 minutes ascending. For a big convoy, you have adequate time get pass the forward screen and ascend into the middle of it while watching for collisions with the observation scope.

Hi!

As discussed in the GWX Manual, early war sonar has a shallow downwards-looking angle: a deep approach works well because you are below the sonar detection cone by the time you are in detection range. Late war sonar can look down at very steep angles, and so the escorts are more likely to detect you at closer ranges when equipped with these types of systems.

@Markshot: These sonars start becoming more prevalent in mid-1943, which is why everyone keeps telling you to try convoy attacks in mid-1943 or later. They aren't always there, but you will know when they are.

Pablo

MarkShot · 03-14-08, 08:09 PM

Can you really have fun just pouncing on lone merchants?

For me, what I love about all these games is the stalking, the attack, and the escape. I realize that war isn't supposed to be "sporting", but for me I play this as a game. So, passing up the convoys just takes all the fun out of it for me.

03-14-08, 09:31 PM

One other point.
It is, after all, a simulation.
No one can give each ship in game that one special thing.
The Human element.
An scort can only work with the AI the Game has.
It does not have a "Gut" feeling.
It has limited experence as the game defines it.
Those are very different from real life.
You find the holes in the game.
Nothing special there.
I defeat games all the time by finding the flaws.
You want a "smarter" AI.
I doubt you get one without going too far the other way.

MarkShot · 03-14-08, 11:25 PM

Thanks for the explanation of how the AI works.

I have seen some of this myself, since when practicing in some of my saved checkpoints, I watch the AI on the surface after I am sure that I have given them the slip.

From what I have seen, there are usually only one or two active searchers. I use the word active here not in a sonar sense, but in the sense of driving the situation. The active searchers appear to continuously circle to see if they can pick you up as they make their circular run. If they don't trip over you, then they double back on the spot where they had you and drop another pattern. The other escorts sit more or less still at further distances, I guess either waiting for a report of your updated location or that you might foolishly pass directly underneath them.

I will agree that the AI is a bit weak. In a strategic sense, the addition of escorts doesn't seem to vastly complicate the sub's task of escaping. Having played AOD, going from 4-7 escorts can often be the kiss of death, because they form an impenetrable circle which you will never break out of. Also, they attack much more aggressively and force a great deal more movement to avoid destruction. Thus, you get maybe 10 good runs, before your battery has nothing left. I find that in this game, I can milk a battery for evasion for a very long, long time. Someone had once offered an analysis of I think SH1 and escort behavior showing how each escort contributes to tightening the window of escape such that by the time the 8th escort appears, the window is only about 10% of the circumfrence wide such that it is almost impossible to nail it and escape.

Thanks again. I'll continue to explore the game.

By the way, does SH4 play pretty much the same? I have it and mods installed, but haven't really been playing yet?

MarkShot · 03-15-08, 09:41 AM

Bump - see screenshot. Added a place to download the redline mod for those who have been asking. Credit to Rubini as I adapted his work for my own personal needs.

Rubini, if sharing this is not cool, then let me know and I will take it down and stop responding to requests for it.

Thanks.

Pablo · 03-15-08, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Thus, you get maybe 10 good runs, before your battery has nothing left. I find that in this game, I can milk a battery for evasion for a very long, long time.

Long battery life is in line with historical capabilities. A Type VIIC U-boat could go about 80 miles at 4 knots, and the Type IX about 65 miles at 4 knots while submerged on a battery charge, so having a flat battery after evading only 10 depth charge patterns seems a bit on the low side to me. Historically, the hunter-killer groups just camped overhead until psychological factors or battle damage forced the boat to the surface or killed it.

Quote:

By the way, does SH4 play pretty much the same? I have it and mods installed, but haven't really been playing yet?

Hmm... your best bet is probably to check the SH IV fora. IIRC the stock escort behavior isn't very effective, but modders have been tweaking things to make them more effective.

Pablo

Jimbuna · 03-14-08, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

I am going to start working on something new today.

Instead of trying to slip in the front door at 25M at 1kts, I am going to try to come in at about 220M at 1kts. I think this will reduce the chance of ASDIC if I fail to nail the gap in the screen. Also, if they do detect me, it will be good to be deep. If I nail the gap, then I will blow ballast and pop up. Silent, of course.

How do you blow ballast silently (presuming of course your into a certain element of realism play

MarkShot · 03-14-08, 04:51 PM

Actually, in timing it, I don't think there is much difference between hydro planes and blowing balasts while keeping shaft RPM at 100.

So, realism aside, it's about 15 minutes to come up and shoot.

I know that I will never meet the high standards of the GRP (GWX Realism Police). Not even if I get a waterproof laptop and play in the shower with subwoofers shaking the bathroom!

* Above said in the spirit of jest ... no real insults implied or intended.

Jimbuna · 03-14-08, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Actually, in timing it, I don't think there is much difference between hydro planes and blowing balasts while keeping shaft RPM at 100.

So, realism aside, it's about 15 minutes to come up and shoot.

I know that I will never meet the high standards of the GRP (GWX Realism Police). Not even if I get a waterproof laptop and play in the shower with subwoofers shaking the bathroom!

* Above said in the spirit of jest ... no real insults implied or intended.

Likewise Kaleun

03-14-08, 02:29 PM	#2
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	I am going to start working on something new today. Instead of trying to slip in the front door at 25M at 1kts, I am going to try to come in at about 220M at 1kts. I think this will reduce the chance of ASDIC if I fail to nail the gap in the screen. Also, if they do detect me, it will be good to be deep. If I nail the gap, then I will blow ballast and pop up. Silent, of course. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

03-14-08, 04:00 PM	#3
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	The pop-up attack is definitely doable. You got about 15 minutes diving and about 15 minutes ascending. For a big convoy, you have adequate time get pass the forward screen and ascend into the middle of it while watching for collisions with the observation scope. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

03-14-08, 08:09 PM	#5
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Can you really have fun just pouncing on lone merchants? For me, what I love about all these games is the stalking, the attack, and the escape. I realize that war isn't supposed to be "sporting", but for me I play this as a game. So, passing up the convoys just takes all the fun out of it for me. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

03-14-08, 11:25 PM	#7
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the explanation of how the AI works. I have seen some of this myself, since when practicing in some of my saved checkpoints, I watch the AI on the surface after I am sure that I have given them the slip. From what I have seen, there are usually only one or two active searchers. I use the word active here not in a sonar sense, but in the sense of driving the situation. The active searchers appear to continuously circle to see if they can pick you up as they make their circular run. If they don't trip over you, then they double back on the spot where they had you and drop another pattern. The other escorts sit more or less still at further distances, I guess either waiting for a report of your updated location or that you might foolishly pass directly underneath them. I will agree that the AI is a bit weak. In a strategic sense, the addition of escorts doesn't seem to vastly complicate the sub's task of escaping. Having played AOD, going from 4-7 escorts can often be the kiss of death, because they form an impenetrable circle which you will never break out of. Also, they attack much more aggressively and force a great deal more movement to avoid destruction. Thus, you get maybe 10 good runs, before your battery has nothing left. I find that in this game, I can milk a battery for evasion for a very long, long time. Someone had once offered an analysis of I think SH1 and escort behavior showing how each escort contributes to tightening the window of escape such that by the time the 8th escort appears, the window is only about 10% of the circumfrence wide such that it is almost impossible to nail it and escape. Thanks again. I'll continue to explore the game. By the way, does SH4 play pretty much the same? I have it and mods installed, but haven't really been playing yet? __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

03-15-08, 09:41 AM	#8
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Bump - see screenshot. Added a place to download the redline mod for those who have been asking. Credit to Rubini as I adapted his work for my own personal needs. Rubini, if sharing this is not cool, then let me know and I will take it down and stop responding to requests for it. Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

03-14-08, 09:31 PM	#6
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	One other point. It is, after all, a simulation. No one can give each ship in game that one special thing. The Human element. An scort can only work with the AI the Game has. It does not have a "Gut" feeling. It has limited experence as the game defines it. Those are very different from real life. You find the holes in the game. Nothing special there. I defeat games all the time by finding the flaws. You want a "smarter" AI. I doubt you get one without going too far the other way.

03-14-08, 04:51 PM	#11
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Actually, in timing it, I don't think there is much difference between hydro planes and blowing balasts while keeping shaft RPM at 100. So, realism aside, it's about 15 minutes to come up and shoot. I know that I will never meet the high standards of the GRP (GWX Realism Police). Not even if I get a waterproof laptop and play in the shower with subwoofers shaking the bathroom! * Above said in the spirit of jest ... no real insults implied or intended. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!