Dubb-Ya and waterboarding

[bookworm_020]

I guess it's duck season!

[baggygreen]

Im gonna go out on a limb and play a bit of devil's advocate, but we've got a lot of people saying it makes us as bad as them, ra ra.

I wont necessarily argue that, but i'll come a little bit from huntington's angle. For those who don't know, hes the author of a paper predicting a clash of civilisations between the western world, the eastern world, and the islamic world.

At the moment were at war with extremists who steadfastly believe that if you're not muslim you must be killed. to their eyes, this war has been ongoing since the 7th century CE, not since sept. 11 like many in the west think. unfortunately, they aren't overly fussy when it comes to killing civilians etc either - they take the view that if you're not muslim you're the enemy. This is contrary to the western view that civilian casualties must be kept to a minimum.

What im getting at is that we're trying to defeat using morals an enemy that simply doesnt share the same values and in doing so making things so much tougher (or are we causing less harm than we could be if we stooped to their level? Another issue..). we're fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. Is it even possible to win a fight that is so polarised? ww2 isnt a great example, we wouldnt have won without the soviets and they weren't too far removed from the deprivations of the nazis.

So, in this terribly lopsided fight, is it really that unreasonable to take measures such as non-disfugiring torture, ie waterboarding? Purely hypothetically, what if we knew a nuke was going to go off in NY and we needed the location, and torture was the only way to get it? Where can and do you draw the line?

Like i said at the start, im only playing devils advocate, and itd be nice if people played nicely

[Friedmann]

There is no justification for torture. The West lectures the world about our superior values, we should not discard them at the first sign of trouble.

In a war against militant Islam we cannot hope to win by force, by reacting with violence and torture against these people not only do we motivate them but our mistakes legitimise their message which aids their recruiting. Its a vicious cycle.

There are only two ways for the West to win this conflict.

a) Genocide, obviously not an option.

or

b) Removing the motivations and making the militants irrelevant.

The later option is the only viable course of action.

So that said, I think torture is not only wrong but in a battle of ideas our perceived barbarity would in the long run hurt our cause far more than help it.

An interesting read below regarding a different approach to this issue.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-28737,00.html

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by August

Pilots normally have to attend SERE school and they do that kind of stuff there.

I wonder if that school was one of the duties bush "missed" during his "tour" in the Texas/Alabama ANG?

After WWII the United States tried Japanese military and civilians for waterboarding and gave them many years at hard labour. But that was different you see.

That was "bad" torture

We only do "good" torture

Gooses and Ganders, Pots and Kettles

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

Pilots normally have to attend SERE school and they do that kind of stuff there.

I doubt they go as far as waterboarding.
It is not uncommon for people to suffer broken or dislocated limbs from the practice through struggling against the restraints.


Some short reading

[DeepIron]

To be honest, I'm so disgusted with being an American, I'm seriously thinking about a visa to Canada and renouncing my citizenship... (but I'll do legally, not like the unwashed hordes crossing the US border from the south).

I have friends in BC who will sponsor me and my wife and we both have job skills that would qualify us for permanent citizenship.

The America I grew up believing in no longer exists...

[Platapus]

DeepIron

I feel your disgust and shame.

We were supposed to be above this stuff.

What made America great was that we prevailed without sinking to the levels of our enemy.

It is always harder for a free country to fight a less free country. It appears that all the advantages are with them. But we used to choose to fight honourably despite the difficulty simply because it was the right thing to do.

Americans used to want to fight the right way not the easy way.

Recently this attitude has changed. And I sincerely hope it will change back

The United States is not licked yet. We still have a chance to repair our morals and international reputations.

But we will have to work at it and stop being so aggressive. It will take a long time. Our only hope is that other nations are more understanding to us then we have been to them. The good news is that the reputation of Americans is a lot higher than the reputation of America. Other nations can recognize the difference. It would be nice if we could also.

However, we can't rest on our personal laurels for long. The world is watching Americans to see if we can change America. If we don't, we will be sending a very clear message to the world that this is how Americans want America to be.

A little humility, while a blow to our national ego, might do wonders in rebuilding the United States that I feel we both want back.

I have faith in Americans to change America back. I hope this faith is not misplaced.

[August]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

To be honest, I'm so disgusted with being an American, I'm seriously thinking about a visa to Canada and renouncing my citizenship... (but I'll do legally, not like the unwashed hordes crossing the US border from the south).

I have friends in BC who will sponsor me and my wife and we both have job skills that would qualify us for permanent citizenship.

The America I grew up believing in no longer exists...

Then go already.

Originally Posted by Stephen Decatur

Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by August

Then go already.

I agree.

-S

PS. In Quebec, they think exactly like you DeepIron - you would totally fit in.

[Tchocky]

He said he's thinking about it. Hasn't made up his mind. Would you take such a decision lightly?

[Platapus]

With all respect August, no

I won't leave the United States nor would I ever recommend any other citizen to leave.

As a citizen we retain the right to stay in this country AND complain about the way it is being run. Who else is in a better position to complain? A foreigner? Hardly. It is what is called freedom of expression and it used to be a good admired thing in this country.

If you don't like citizens of a country complaining about how their country is being run, I respectfully suggest that YOU leave. There are plenty of other countries where freedom of expression is restricted to "our country love it or leave it".

I hear that North Koreans like to speak highly of their national leadership.
The Saudi's are also expressive of their love for their national leadership.

Personally I prefer to stay in a country where I am able to not only complain but to vote in order to change the country from a direction I disagree with to a direction I do agree with.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt

[DeepIron]

Originally Posted by August

Then go already.

Takes time dude. I'm not going to jump a fence or swim a river. And as Tchocky points out, thank you T, I'm considering it.

I applaud the efforts of those of you who evidently feel that no matter how insipid, illegal or immoral our govenment acts, it's always right. I'm having more and more trouble trying to "look the other way" and convince myself that "it's ok".

[SUBMAN1]

Why is everyone complaining about waterboarding? I mean, if journalists line up to try it so that they can report on it, it must be so terrible!

More wasted thread space on subsim.

-S

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Why is everyone complaining about waterboarding? I mean, if journalists line up to try it so that they can report on it, it must be so terrible!

More wasted thread space on subsim.

-S

I think trying a little torture is quite different from experiencing the real thing against your will.

I visited Alcatraz Prison and was locked up in the dark cell for about 10 minutes. It was not that bad as I knew I would be let out in 10 minutes. Does that mean that lightless isolation for weeks/months/years is not a problem? I don't think so.

The argument that water-boarding is not torture because a journalist "tried" it is spurious.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Why is everyone complaining about waterboarding?

Because it is torture. Because the US (among other countries) uses it.