Re-introducing the Iron Cross?

[Oberon]

I welcome it, I've always loved the design and anyone who says as KP so wonderfully put, that it was used during the period of Hitler, needs to be reminded that it was around long before Adolf and has nowt to do with him.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Yeh, that's what I said.

Sorry. Too many negatives got me confused!

[Thunder]

I was going through my dads stuff after him passing recently , and found a few medals from his father (my grandfather), including the iron cross, which apparently he got on the eastern front.It really is a beautiful medal ,i hope they re-introduce it.

[August]

Originally Posted by Thunder

I was going through my dads stuff after him passing recently , and found a few medals from his father (my grandfather), including the iron cross, which apparently he got on the eastern front.It really is a beautiful medal ,i hope they re-introduce it.

I have an IC 1st class that was awarded to my Great Grandfather in the 1st world war.

[Skybird]

The defense minister is in favour of it, as are some federal politicians and the vast majority of the army as well. But we have the SPD. The Greens. The alliance of former SED and DKP, now called Die Linke.

Supporting this idea, I nevertheless fear that the left will rate a debate about a new fairground here, and more immigration there, as more important than this "militaristic stuff". It also has the suspicious odour of elitism on it, so... go figure. We have medals for service time. For the Oder-flooding. For social compatability of service, which now is considered to be of honour. While all that is nice and well, it is not the same to risk your life for a purpose going beyond your own life.

But who needs a medal for valour for serving beyond duty while under fire, or courage in the face of the enemy? What enemy, btw? We probably make ourselves enemies by getting back this medal, you see. we better get a medal for extraordinary peaceful behavior.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by August

I have an IC 1st class that was awarded to my Great Grandfather in the 1st world war.

I've got one of these in my pocket.
Not through the family, though

[Rhodes]

[quote=Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

In my opinion, I think it should came back, it's an old german symbol, and it's painted on airplanes, tanks and many ships and vessels as Skybird said.
Any idea as new the medal will be? The article says anything about it? Possibly the german eagle in the center?

No, no new thing - it is discussed to bring back the old iron cross design itself. It was designed by Friedrich Schinkel, and was first installed in 1813 - during the wars against Napoleon.

Thanks!

[Skybird]

Der Spiegel now picked up the story. Noit much new, though, only another hint that many politicians may not be comfortable with the idea.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...539802,00.html

[Friedmann]

It should definitely be brought back. It has no link to Nazism, pre-dates it and as others have said the iron cross already adorns tanks, aircraft etc.

Plus, it just looks damn cool.

[antikristuseke]

How could anyone say that the Iron cross has been mared by history, just because it was awarded during nazi rule does not link it to the nazi regime in any way. It was an award for gallantry under enemy fire from its start and if brought back it would still hold the same distinction.

[August]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

How could anyone say that the Iron cross has been mared by history, just because it was awarded during nazi rule does not link it to the nazi regime in any way. It was an award for gallantry under enemy fire from its start and if brought back it would still hold the same distinction.

The thing is i've never heard of anyone having a problem with bringing it back besides the Germans themselves...

[ToySoldier]

Hi out there!

An idea long discussed here in good old germany .... and like most "military" things has in the publik a - let say - bad tast!
It´s not only the Eiserne Kreuz it´s also soldier songs, uniforms (military not police or such) patriotism and and and ...
In germany there is the discussion if we should take the ´risk´ to send combat troops to the hot spot Afghanistan ... and now you ask for the Eiserne Kreuz?
Here you don´t read anything about this employment of the Bundeswehr, except it´s negativ.
And I know what I´m talking about, because I spend 134 days last year there!
You receives for it a document and a employment medal, and you´re only aloud to carry it on the dress uniform!
As long as we are "guilty" for the 12 years between 33-45 it will not give such a sighn for courage and valor!!

In diesem Sinne
Gott mit Uns
Frank B. aus K.

[August]

Originally Posted by ToySoldier

As long as we are "guilty" for the 12 years between 33-45...

Frankly Frank (sorry couldn't resist) as long as the Germans allow others to successfully lay that guilt trip on them that tactic will continue to be used.

[AntEater]

Principally, I'm all in favor of the EK, problem is that our politicians won't have the courage to do it.
Problem is, Germany has absolutely no award for military bravery. There is the civilian federal merit cross, which is given out so inflationary that basically all you have to do to get the lowest form is being in public office for 10 years without getting sued for corruption, while for the highest form you actually only have to be a federal president or a foreign dictator to get it , with awards were made to Empress Soraya of Persia and brazilian dictator Getulio Vargas.
The military has a badge for sports, branch badges and a "performance badge" which is basically something of an expanded sports badge. There is also the Honour medal of the Bundeswehr, which is given for such heroics as 15 years of service, archivements in sports, public office or church (!). But generally we always took a grim pride in have "blank chests" where american E-5s with similar service records and zero combat experience looked like christmas trees.

They will most likely create a quasi-combat "mission medal" award while painstakingly avoid anything remotely visually similar to the EK and also avoiding words like Combat, heroism and valor in the criteria.
I'm not sure if the bundeswehr is an army of lions, but it is surely an army led by sheep.
Maybe it is better to save that prestigious award for a better republic that can honour its soldiers and also for a "real" war.

The one reason that really speaks against the EK is simple:
The EK was not an "everyday award", it was only awarded in wars where Germany herself was at stake. 1813, 1871, 1914, 1939.
Imperial germany fought a lot of small colonial wars between 1871 and 1914, but no german soldier was awarded an iron cross during that time period.
These combats can be compared in size and scope with today's international "peace" missions, even though a lot less thought was given to both collateral damage and own casualties.
There were a lot of awards given, and the highest honor of prussia, the Pour le Merite, was awarded some times for action in China, but not the EK.
Also in WW1 and in WW2 the award of the EK tended to be quite inflationary, at least among officers. There was a WW1 joke that the only way a staff officer could avoid getting an EK was to shoot himself and even then he stood a good chance of getting it posthumously.
The only thing that made the EK prestigious was that the criteria of getting one were still a lot more objective than those of the state awards. For example, during the battle of Verdun the Count of Hesse lived in a villa some way off the battlefield as a general without command and spent his days awarding the hessian medal of bravery to every soldier he came across! This resulted in his cooks, his guard, a lot of railway workers, clerks and other second line troops (and apparently also some french POWs) being decorated as true hessian heroes
Actually it would be possible to reinstate the pour le Merite, as the civilian version is still being awarded on rare occasions. There can be only 12 recipents of that order at a time and one has to die in order for a new award to be made by the german president.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Frankly Frank (sorry couldn't resist) as long as the Germans allow others to successfully lay that guilt trip on them that tactic will continue to be used.

Believe me, nobody does that better than we ourselves. Germans are the only real experts in minimizing all german history to the years 33-45. Nobody does it better.