Report: Britain, Italy May Slash Eurofighter Orders

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It's about financial compensation payments, money, and job shares. The F35 has little to do with it. It was not much different with the cuts in orders the raptor has seen. The F22 now is bought in numvbers that let critics say they doubt he military use of an aircraft that will be available only in so low quantities. Other critics in Europe already said the same about the Eurofighter, although for eurpope the strategic perpsective is less unsatisfying than it is for the US, since Europe is not so massively militarily engaged around all the globe.

stanislaw Lem once wrote in a satiric essay on the future, that in the late 21st century the mighty US air force will consist of only three planes anymore. More they will not be able to afford. and these planes will never been flown - they also cannot afford to loose one of them in an accident.

Raptors have been re-authorized. We are producing many more than what was originally planned at the end of the budget cuts. I think 435 (?) now with options for more. That is a force to be reckoned with. 150 aircraft is too thin.

Let me see if I can find the latest numbers. They keep rising. I wish they would can a few F-35's though in favor of more raptors.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I'm wrong. They've increased it to about 200 aircraft now. The real number is supposed to be 191. I think we may get more - published on Dec 13th (20 more means 203 units - but we need more):

A Push for More F-22s: Reportedly a determined group of lawmakers are writing to Defense Secretary Robert Gates to press the case for continued production of the new F-22 stealth fighter. Among them are Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.), Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Rep. Kay Granger (R-Tex.), and Rep. Chet Edwards (D-Tex.). Chambliss already has asked the Pentagon to release three independent studies that apparently show the Air Force should have more than the 183 Raptors currently approved. The 2008 defense spending bill includes a provision for 20 more fighters but provides no additional money. According to Dave Montgomery of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, more than 50 lawmakers have signed the letter and more may join in before the group dispatches the letter this week.

-S

http://dailyreport.afa.org/AFA/Repor...030raptors.htm

PS. The Air Force is pushing for 380 planes.

[Skybird]

The last number of Raptors I heared of and remembered when writing the above was in the range of 180-190. since this is an extremely expensive aircraft, further cuts cannot be ruled out, no matter what kind of government is next.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The last number of Raptors I heared of and remembered when writing the above was in the range of 180-190. since this is an extremely expensive aircraft, further cuts cannot be ruled out, no matter what kind of government is next.

I bet we end up with close to 300. It is how the US Government works. An example is, Seawolf - They were supposed to cancel the entire project, yet the Navy still built 3 of them.

There will be no more cuts on F-22. The money has been appropriated already, and we already have over 100 of them. It is easy to cut things when the money is not there yet. After it is there, to get lawmakers to bend to a cut is a rarity.

-S

PS. The aircraft is not expensive. It is similar to 1970's dollars to build the F-15. As time went on, the F-15 got less expensive to produce, and so will Raptor. An example - if in 1977, an F-15 costs $20 Million, if you were to buy that same aircraft 30 years later in 2007 (assuming production costs never came down), it would cost you $160 Million today. This is actually more than a Raptor costs.

[Skybird]

Raptor: year, current number of total planes ordered, costs per piece:

1990 - 750 - 149 Mio
1993 - 442 - 162 Mio
1997 - 339 - 187 Mio
2003 - 279 - 257 Mio
2005 - 178 - 345 Mio

these numbers are production costs, inclduing - in shares - costs for developement and research. Your lower numbers assume that the raptor fell down from the sky and was just to be copied, saving a lot of money that way.

these costs are so high that the Raptor hardly will become a great export success, in fact it laready has lost several competitions, namely in the Guld and SE Asia region. Since it's specifications are in parts surpassed by the Eurofighter, and since it's shining features like supercruise and stealth only can be realised with minimum and internal payload, this is again a reason why the Raptor will not become much cheaper by raising production numbers. It's a good design, but it will not become a commercial success. It is often said that the kill ratio between the eurofighter and the Raptor statistically is expected to be around roughly 1:4, making the eurofighter the closest rival to the Raptor in this statistical war, but that means that by production costs, four shot down eurofighter equals the costs of 1 shot down Raptor. If considering risks of accidents causing losses (financially), and slow numbers available for military operations, and having less diversity in military combat profiles it can conductcompared to the eurofighter, the Raptor militarily makes less sense for a global power, than the eurofighter does, which for the same money could be produced in four times as high numbers, has more capabilities, and thus could be made available by the US in sufficient numbers around the globe. Seen that way, the whole thing is a bit queer: because Europe has more use for the Raptor to secure the limited local area of Eurpopean airspace with a limited number of airplanes, while America has more use for the Eurofighter with it's much higher quantities and wider combat role possebilities.

tighten your seat-belts before starting to follow the cost spiral for the F-35. It will see the same way upwards like Raptor and Eurofighter. In the end it will cost 2.5 times as much as originally planned - minimum.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Raptor: year, current number of total planes ordered, costs per piece:

1990 - 750 - 149 Mio
1993 - 442 - 162 Mio
1997 - 339 - 187 Mio
2003 - 279 - 257 Mio
2005 - 178 - 345 Mio

I think your costs are wrong. The F-22 has been streamlined and is now down to $135 million a copy last I checked. I think you are including development costs in there. That bill has already been paid, so it is a mute point at this point in time. That is artificially increasing your unit costs.

-S

[Skybird]

What have I said?

Again, other source:

Because development costs have risen and the number of aircraft dropped, the F-22 now ticks in with a per plane cost of $345 million, according to a March Government Accountability Office report.

that was decembre 2005:
http://www.air-attack.com/news/news_...Be-Slowed.html

Of course costs per piece, and selling cost, reflect developement, and try to compansate for these starting investements. Else the producing company would run bancrupt when selling the toys.


Also:

Washington (UPI) Jul 26, 2006
The U.S. Air Force's plan to buy up to 60 more F-22 fighter jets will cost $1.7 billion, the Government Accountability Office said.

The Air Force argues that the scheme will cut $3.7 million off the price of each of the aircraft -- saving a possible $225 million -- and that it is necessary to keep advanced U.S. fighter manufacturing lines active while the Joint Strike Fighter comes on line. Shutting down production lines can scatter experienced workers and often incurs the cost of warehousing manufacturing components. The F-22 production line was supposed to go cold at the end of 2007, but the USAF sought and won congressional approval to stretch it out until 2010 via an amendment to the defense authorization bill.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/USAF...Costs_999.html