Sinking lifeboats?

[Renesisfury]

Originally Posted by Elder-Pirate

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.

Hey, more stationary targets? Sign me up!

[Oldgamer48]

Originally Posted by Gargantou

It was still a violation of the Geneva Convention which afaik the US claimed to 'abide' to, and he was not charged with warcrimes after the patrol, even though destroying (populated) lifeboats is clearly against the geneva convention.

The killing of prisoners was a common thing in World War II ... all countries. My best friend was killed right in front of my eyes in Vietnam (blown apart by a 152mm HE round). Had I a close encounter with the helpless enemy, soon after, it would have taken a lot of "convincing" to keep me from committing a breach of the Geneva Convention.

What happens in war is that the combatants are dehumanized by the brutality of it. Considering the lethality of modern weapons, it's a miracle that millions of "casualties" don't occur, today. When the wars end, the winners go home, and the losers face war crimes tribunals.

That's life ...

@clayp
The picture kind of puts it in perspective, doesn't it?

[captiandon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Just as an aside, what got me looking more closely at japanese warcrimes was when i was doing research for the bungo pete/akikaze mod in TM.

I ran accross this page:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan...s_pacific.html

Primarly because an incident took place called "THE 'AKIKAZE' EXECUTIONS". Naturally it peaked my curiosity. Not wanting to take a obscure user page at face value, i started googleing some of the incidents described on that page, and they all seem to have really occured.

Another Good research would be the book We Were Three at Batan. It talks about the Batan Death March from a survivers stand point, Written by a Surviver of it. I read that when I was in Fourth Grade. Was a long time ago but this just reminded me of reading that book.

[ssbn627g]

Originally Posted by tomoose

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

Unless they are shooting at you, I.E. the 3rd or 4th patrol of Wahoo, where Mush Morton shot up the life boats that were shooting at them.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by ssbn627g

Unless they are shooting at you, I.E. the 3rd or 4th patrol of Wahoo, where Mush Morton shot up the life boats that were shooting at them.

Yep, but it was the Wahoo that actually opened fire first.

Originally Posted by Wahoo's patrol log from the third patrol

At 1155 sighted tops of fourth ship to the right of the cripple. Her thick
masts in line had the appearance of a light cruiser's tops. Kept heading for
these ships hoping that the last one sighted would attempt to pick up survivors
of the transport. When the range was about 10,000 yards, however, she turned
right and joined the cripple, her masts bridge structure and engines aft
identifying her as a tanker. Decided to let these two ships get over the horizon
while we surfaced to charge batteries and destroy the estimated twenty troop
boats now in the water. These boats were of many types, scows, motor
launches, cabin cruisers and nondescript varieties. At 1135 made battle
surfaces [sic] and manned all guns. Fired 4" gun at largest scow loaded with
troops. Although all troops in this boat apparently jumped in the water our fire
was returned by small caliber machine guns. We then opened fire with
everything we had. Then set course 085 degrees at flank speed to overtake
the cripple and tanker.

From there on they went after the two ships that escaped, ultimately sinking both.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Elder-Pirate

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.

Actually, they shouldn't stop and pick them up. British convoys in the Atlantic had strict orders not to make themselves targets by stopping to take on survivors. After the battle the escorts would try to pick up survivors, but only if it was convenient.
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve...-baddeck-e.htm
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/German...ditGreate.html

[Elder-Pirate]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually, they shouldn't stop and pick them up. British convoys in the Atlantic had strict orders not to make themselves targets by stopping to take on survivors. After the battle the escorts would try to pick up survivors, but only if it was convenient.
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve...-baddeck-e.htm
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/German...ditGreate.html

Very good but in the Sim ( especially SH4 1.4 ) I've seen DD's following very slowly behind crippled ships ( that just would not sink ) and almost hit their guys in lifeboats and keep on going. This has happened twice and both times I was out of torps just watching slightly above the surface. I still think the DEVs could have coded it for them to be picked up even if it was a last chance deal.

[kylesplanet]

Originally Posted by Elder-Pirate

Very good but in the Sim ( especially SH4 1.4 ) I've seen DD's following very slowly behind crippled ships ( that just would not sink ) and almost hit their guys in lifeboats and keep on going. This has happened twice and both times I was out of torps just watching slightly above the surface. I still think the DEVs could have coded it for them to be picked up even if it was a last chance deal.

If one of the DD's stopped to pick up surviors and I had a shot at him, hey he's gone.

[jason210]

The first time I saw a lifeboat pop up was during a storm off the Japan coast. I thought that was what the rescue button was for. That didn't work, so then I tried to pull alongside the lifeboat but those little japs kept rowing away (either that or there was a strong current). After that I gave up and didn't bother again.

I died shortly afterwards by accidently pressing the "D" key while at 2048 time acceleration.

If there's a moral to this story then I've no idea what it is.

[rubenandthejets]

Lifeboats are worth hitting (1 ton to your stats) and make fine AAA practice. I've found the 20mm are better than the 40mm for this role. I also run them over. Mind you, now I only take out survivors from IJN ships or troopships going TO the front.

I justify this quite simply:
1: Its a game.
2: The treatment of POWs, the nationals of conquered countries and esp. women and children by the Japanese. You wanna play hardball, huh? No problem. Ever heard of Unit 731? How about Nangking? USS Panay? Changi?

We Australians were fighting for our lives in the Pacific. We got hit in Darwin, Broome and Sydney. By mid 42 we'd seen what happened to POWs and Convention or not it was touch and go if any Japanese soldier surrendering was shot. Not that we talk about it though......

For more incidents where survivors in lifeboats wre deliberately targetted, check out the Battle of the Bismark Sea. US and RAAF aircraft wrote off a convoy of troops headed for PNG and were ordered to finish off the survivors with strafing runs.

So, anyway, yeah, I take 'em out. I don't get penalised by the game mechanics and the big ones are worth a ton each. Less trained personnel going back into circulation. I've tried hosing downed pilots too (especially if they hit my ship) but it doesn't seem to work.

PS It's a GAME.

[Elder-Pirate]

Originally Posted by rubenandthejets

Lifeboats are worth hitting (1 ton to your stats) and make fine AAA practice. I've found the 20mm are better than the 40mm for this role. I also run them over. Mind you, now I only take out survivors from IJN ships or troopships going TO the front.

I justify this quite simply:
1: Its a game.
2: The treatment of POWs, the nationals of conquered countries and esp. women and children by the Japanese. You wanna play hardball, huh? No problem. Ever heard of Unit 731? How about Nangking? USS Panay? Changi?

We Australians were fighting for our lives in the Pacific. We got hit in Darwin, Broome and Sydney. By mid 42 we'd seen what happened to POWs and Convention or not it was touch and go if any Japanese soldier surrendering was shot. Not that we talk about it though......

For more incidents where survivors in lifeboats wre deliberately targetted, check out the Battle of the Bismark Sea. US and RAAF aircraft wrote off a convoy of troops headed for PNG and were ordered to finish off the survivors with strafing runs.

So, anyway, yeah, I take 'em out. I don't get penalised by the game mechanics and the big ones are worth a ton each. Less trained personnel going back into circulation. I've tried hosing downed pilots too (especially if they hit my ship) but it doesn't seem to work.

PS It's a GAME.

There were a lot of people whom did not want the lifeboats in both SH3 ( Devs did not either ) and SH4. Some got their wish in SH4 but many still do not like.

Personally I do not see the point in wasting ammo on 1 lousy ton. besides none of the survivors make it anyway.

And what Sub captain wants to get all shot up/sunk by either near by war ships or those pesky airplanes? :hmm:

I'll just stay under them until everything is all clear then I'll surface and go look for the BIG boys not small fries.

But as you say : It's a game.

To each his own.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Renesisfury

Should you do it? Any negatives? I thought it would be a good excuse to keep myself sharp on AA.

I can't sink them...but I have tried

but I like the boats...it makes it more real and less "sanitized"

[Torplexed]

I must admit I sometimes feel a pang of guilt leaving the Japanese crew members to their fate in an open boat in the pitching cold sea, even though the rational part of me knows it's just a 3-D animated construct.

To make myself feel better as I steam away I imagine hearing a faint cry on the wind from the fading lifeboats: YOOOOUUU DIE SOOOOON YANKEEEEE!!!

[Elder-Pirate]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: YOOOOUUU DIE SOOOOON YANKEEEEE!!!


Jeez Torplexed you don't have any mercy on a guys gut do you, I could not have laughed any harder. Ohhhh it hurts. :rotfl:

[Torplexed]

Sorry! It's just me rationalizing by reaching into my fond memories of those Hollywood World War 2 movie stereotypes. :p

My favorite was always the Japanese officer who when he interrogated one of our soldiers always turned out to have a UCLA education, which--talk about ingratitude--he turned against us. ("American! Terr me the rocation of yoah headquatah! Ahh, I see you suppry I speak Engrish so werr!")