Enemy A/C south of Midway OR tale of 48 single engine planes 2000 miles from a base - Page 2

scrag · 12-03-07, 01:06 AM

Sorry not buying the CV thing as that is speculation - these A/C encounters existed at various times well into July 1945 - so the thought if the IJN with a carrier is nonsense. A bug makes a lot if sense - particularly if you are slow to dive and are spotted - the amount of A/C encounters goes up dramatically after that. Regarding the sound issue. I will say that WWII Technology could not exploit the sound of a CV or any other noise source at a significant range. However fact is that sound travels trans oceanic ranges under proper conditions (deep water and a a positive or a negative Sound Speed Profile). So it is feasible to detect a carrier or merchant in excess of 300 nm (600K yards)

tater · 12-03-07, 02:25 AM

switch.dota posted this image. His estimate of the center of the aircraft is marked X. Note that he took MANY images, even made a movie.

That X... is also where the Nagumo force spawns.

Being spotted makes total sense, that's exactly how air encounters in SH4 work. If you are detected, you go from a small % chance of an airstrike being generated every X minutes, to a very large % chance of an airstrike every X minutes. Airgroups need not be attached to anything. Planes spawn out of thin air. There is no airbase near the X, however, just 3 CVs in the Midway mission (4 in any mods that fix it).

tater

elanaiba · 12-03-07, 04:26 AM

Planes do spawn out of thin air, but if there's no airbase/CV to support them/nothing for the strike to originate in, within range, there's no airstrike.

tater · 12-03-07, 09:51 AM

Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet!

Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June.

Really.

tater

Steeltrap · 12-03-07, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet!

Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June.

Really.

tater

Gotta love the quality control in this sim.....

:rotfl: :rotfl:

tater · 12-03-07, 09:34 PM

Presumably the scripted stuff was designed primarily for single missions, in which case it wouldn't matter.

I suppose i can do a test and add a massive CV group to some other layer on the other side of the earth and test it in a more controlled way. Lurker's method certainly solves the problem, but for my campaign I wanted to see the ships arrayed as I might have seen them in RL.

tater

tater · 12-03-07, 09:40 PM

BTW, while I'm the first in line to make various criticisms (hopefully constructive) of SH4, the mechanics of the campaign system is NOT one of them. While the scripted stuff might have a bug in campaign mode, it's not a problem in single missions.

Now I'd criticize the content of the stock campaign, but the system itself is remarkably robust and easy to work with. A big

to the devs for it, it rocks.

tater

elanaiba · 12-04-07, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet!

Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June.

Really.

tater

Gotta love the quality control in this sim.....

:rotfl: :rotfl:

You got to admit this is a very very difficult bug to discover

We'll be investigating it.

John Channing · 12-04-07, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet!

Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June.

Really.

tater

Gotta love the quality control in this sim.....

:rotfl: :rotfl:

How about showing a little more respect, please.

JCC

tater · 12-04-07, 09:28 AM

No kidding, elanaiba. Actually, if you search the forum for other threads on the subject, you'll see me explaining why there couldn't possibly be a CV where people were complaining about the centroid of planes. I changed my mind as you can see.

BTW, the image I posted was from TM, and the Nagumo force has been moved west slightly from stock I think (you'd think I'd remember, lol). It's still there in stock, though.

When I realized that the center was right there, and the dates were working out, it seemed pretty likely.

It is very hard to find, frankly. Any of the other scripted groups are likely starting close enough to land that you'd think the planes were coming from an air base and not think twice.

Steeltrap · 12-04-07, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet!

Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June.

Really.

tater

Gotta love the quality control in this sim.....

:rotfl: :rotfl:

How about showing a little more respect, please.

JCC

Much of my 'negative comments' stems from the frustration of how close things are to what many people would consider ideal makes the glaring issues (SD radar, AI generally) all the more frustrating.

SD radar - A-scope, non-directional. Gives range only, never bearing. Fact is it is done poorly in this sim, and it was crucial to the abilities of US subs (compare their radar with U-Boats and you very quickly appreciate how significant it was).

JCC, with all respect, this material is basic. I suspect the devs know it all too well, and for some reason never got it to work.

However, as I am a fan of subsims, and generally like to think I make posts aimed at improving things, I shall apologise if my post was offensive (I meant it a bit tongue-in-cheek, but can understand that that isn't obvious).

So,

Should my previous comment have caused any offense to anyone, especially the developers, then I apologise and unreservedly withdraw it.

Cheers all!

Steeltrap · 12-04-07, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet!

Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June.

Really.

tater

Gotta love the quality control in this sim.....

:rotfl: :rotfl:

You got to admit this is a very very difficult bug to discover

We'll be investigating it.

Yes, a silly remark on my part - with anything of this complexity, odd things like this will happen. I have been plenty critical of other things I think should be fixed, but having a cheap shot at you over something this obscure is poor on my part (as JCC rightly pointed out).

Apologies for that comment of mine!

Incidentally, I have posted in other threads saying you devs get 10 out of 10 for communicating with we enthusiasts as freely as you do, so I'd like to reinforce that sentiment!

Cheers

scrag · 12-04-07, 11:12 PM

Hey just wanted to pass on a thanks for the overall discussion - I know there will be no perfect sim - I really enjoy the game (both of them) and will be happy to support any follow on effort (even U Boats in the Pacific or maybe the Nimitz shows up in 1941 - oh wait that was done already -

). Along the same line as this there are Japanese A/C flying from Wake (yes in 1945). I think the real culript is likely a robust plane generator that wants to make it more challenging - even if it cost's a little in the reality department.

dazkaz · 12-13-08, 12:20 AM

Thank you for this thread.
I have just started out on my first Career of the game and am on my second mission to deploy to Honshu. The date is May 24th 1942, and about 900km from Midway on a bearing of 280 I started to encounter a steady stream of aircraft, all reported to me by radar contacts (I have a radar installed but can't switch it on, although the crew obviously have no problem doing so).
This was becoming so anoying I almost decided to unistall the whole game and put it in the bin. Constantly being draged out of time compression, having to crash dive, re surface and repeat, for over an hour to get almost no where, was becoming incredibly boring.
Fortunately I began to realise it might well be a bug, thats why I investigated it and found this post.
So I'll persevere and hopefully things will get better when I eventually get out of this area.
Thanks D

Nisgeis · 12-13-08, 03:36 AM

Welcome aboard dazkaz!

12-03-07, 01:06 AM	#16
scrag Medic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Posts: 161 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Re read this one Sorry not buying the CV thing as that is speculation - these A/C encounters existed at various times well into July 1945 - so the thought if the IJN with a carrier is nonsense. A bug makes a lot if sense - particularly if you are slow to dive and are spotted - the amount of A/C encounters goes up dramatically after that. Regarding the sound issue. I will say that WWII Technology could not exploit the sound of a CV or any other noise source at a significant range. However fact is that sound travels trans oceanic ranges under proper conditions (deep water and a a positive or a negative Sound Speed Profile). So it is feasible to detect a carrier or merchant in excess of 300 nm (600K yards) __________________

12-03-07, 04:26 AM	#18
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	Planes do spawn out of thin air, but if there's no airbase/CV to support them/nothing for the strike to originate in, within range, there's no airstrike. __________________ With strength I burn...

12-04-07, 11:12 PM	#28
scrag Medic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Posts: 161 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the discussion Hey just wanted to pass on a thanks for the overall discussion - I know there will be no perfect sim - I really enjoy the game (both of them) and will be happy to support any follow on effort (even U Boats in the Pacific or maybe the Nimitz shows up in 1941 - oh wait that was done already - ). Along the same line as this there are Japanese A/C flying from Wake (yes in 1945). I think the real culript is likely a robust plane generator that wants to make it more challenging - even if it cost's a little in the reality department. __________________

12-13-08, 12:20 AM	#29
dazkaz Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Thank you for this thread. I have just started out on my first Career of the game and am on my second mission to deploy to Honshu. The date is May 24th 1942, and about 900km from Midway on a bearing of 280 I started to encounter a steady stream of aircraft, all reported to me by radar contacts (I have a radar installed but can't switch it on, although the crew obviously have no problem doing so). This was becoming so anoying I almost decided to unistall the whole game and put it in the bin. Constantly being draged out of time compression, having to crash dive, re surface and repeat, for over an hour to get almost no where, was becoming incredibly boring. Fortunately I began to realise it might well be a bug, thats why I investigated it and found this post. So I'll persevere and hopefully things will get better when I eventually get out of this area. Thanks D Last edited by dazkaz; 12-13-08 at 12:31 AM.

12-13-08, 03:36 AM	#30
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	Welcome aboard dazkaz! __________________ -------------------------------- This space left intentionally blank.

12-03-07, 02:25 AM	#17
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	switch.dota posted this image. His estimate of the center of the aircraft is marked X. Note that he took MANY images, even made a movie. That X... is also where the Nagumo force spawns. Being spotted makes total sense, that's exactly how air encounters in SH4 work. If you are detected, you go from a small % chance of an airstrike being generated every X minutes, to a very large % chance of an airstrike every X minutes. Airgroups need not be attached to anything. Planes spawn out of thin air. There is no airbase near the X, however, just 3 CVs in the Midway mission (4 in any mods that fix it). tater

12-03-07, 09:51 AM	#19
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Elanaiba, we determined a while ago that if there is a "scripted" group (not a random group) that contains a CV, the AIRGROUP associated with the CV exists from the date/time the mission loads (Campaign.cfg) even if the CV(s) are NOT on the map yet! Ie: Midway mission set to load in January 1 in Campaign.cfg, but the force spawns June 1st. From Jan 1, there will be a CV airgroup sitting at the start point for the Nagumo force, even though no CVs are there until June. Really. tater

12-03-07, 09:34 PM	#21
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Presumably the scripted stuff was designed primarily for single missions, in which case it wouldn't matter. I suppose i can do a test and add a massive CV group to some other layer on the other side of the earth and test it in a more controlled way. Lurker's method certainly solves the problem, but for my campaign I wanted to see the ships arrayed as I might have seen them in RL. tater

12-03-07, 09:40 PM	#22
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	BTW, while I'm the first in line to make various criticisms (hopefully constructive) of SH4, the mechanics of the campaign system is NOT one of them. While the scripted stuff might have a bug in campaign mode, it's not a problem in single missions. Now I'd criticize the content of the stock campaign, but the system itself is remarkably robust and easy to work with. A big to the devs for it, it rocks. tater

12-04-07, 09:28 AM	#25
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	No kidding, elanaiba. Actually, if you search the forum for other threads on the subject, you'll see me explaining why there couldn't possibly be a CV where people were complaining about the centroid of planes. I changed my mind as you can see. BTW, the image I posted was from TM, and the Nagumo force has been moved west slightly from stock I think (you'd think I'd remember, lol). It's still there in stock, though. When I realized that the center was right there, and the dates were working out, it seemed pretty likely. It is very hard to find, frankly. Any of the other scripted groups are likely starting close enough to land that you'd think the planes were coming from an air base and not think twice.