The last Dalai Lama?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

isn't it once you reach the path of wellbeing you no longer are reborn - you have reach the higher plane - perfection? How come he keeps getting reborn then.

Apperantly he does it on purpose out of compassion for those who are stuck in re-birth
in order to help us exscape.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Letum

Apperantly he does it on purpose out of compassion for those who are stuck in re-birth
in order to help us exscape.

Guys, one advise: do not worry about such things, it only makes your mind go crazy. Live your lifes, try not to intentionally do harm, help others, don't focus on yourself. that is of more worth than a thousand theories about reincarnation, Bodhisattvas, and Nirvana. The more you have in your heads, the farther you are away from what you are "searching" for. Nobody needs to go anywhere. You know how it is with the balance and solid stand if the centre of gravity is moved upwards.

Originally Posted by Reeves

You do realise he'd be dead if he stayed. It's hard to be a spiritual leader when your locked in a Chinese prison. (so i've heard )

On the man, he was urged by his advisors to finally flee after several years of Chinese occupation already had taken place, to escape being caught by the Chinese, and live on in exile as an unmanipulated representative for the Tibetan's cause. If somebody thinks that is cowardice and that he should have stayed, maybe even "fought", than he only illustrates how little he knows about Buddhism in general, and about the Dalai Lama's biography in special. He also does not know about the Chinese attempt to manipulate the Kagyu lineage by not letting them find their new leader (called Karmapa) themselves, but manipulating a chinese puppet and installing it as Peking's placeholder (that's why their are two karmapas now, one chinese imposter, and one a majority of the Tibetans follow), and that they intend to do the same with the Gelupa lineage and the Dalai Lama. they were unfortunately successful in causing rifgts, violance, confusion, and a general desintegration of the tibetan'c community, so the chinese tactic is dangerous indeed and directly aims at completing the ethnic cleansing of theirs.

And finally, from the Tibetan's perspective, violating their philosophy and start a fight against the Chinese would cause bad karma for all, for themselves and for the Chinese. For reasons of compassion, most Tibetan authorities, if not all, speak against that.

I wonder why Christians seeing themselves in the following of Jesus do not feel reminded of what Jesus taught. He also did not call for fighting and resisting. He said the opposite, in fact.

as a matter of fact, all world nations leave the Tibetan'S alone, rate their shortterm business interests as higher than deciding for the ethical correct choice to isolate the chinese, and turn a blind eye on the injustice the chinese brought onto the Tibetans of whom thy already have massacred over one million. In this light one maybe should remain silent about accusing their leaders of cowardice and "abandoning their people". Such arrogant self-righteousness is not appropriate in this situation.

[Chock]

That's all very nice in theory, but unfortunately what it boils down to, is the Dalai Lama buggering off to save his own skin and urging everyone else to sit there and take it while he lives in comfort. And it's apparent from the death toll what that has achieved, i.e. absolutely bugger all, apart from suffering for the people who stayed.

Don't often say this, but I completely agree with Waste Gate. The Dalai Lama is like someone on the edge of a brawl, urging others on while they stand there out of the danger themselves. If he was prepared to get his hands dirty along with all the others, I'd have a bit more respect for him, but as it is, he is just like virtually all religious leaders and figureheads, happy to let all the others do the dirty work. In that respect, he's no better than the ayatollahs who urge suicide bombers to their deeds but are not prepared to take that kind of action personally. What kind of 'good karma' does he think letting others carry the load will imbue him with?

And even if we take the view that he has chosen exile in order to help get the cause recognised by world leaders in other countries, we can see what a piss-poor job he has done of that too, as the actions of other countries to prevent attrocities to his people amount to zero.

Another reason why following any religion but one of your own making, is stupid. He will probably re-incarnate as a chocolate teapot, because he is about as much use as one.

Chock

[Letum]

You think he should have ended up like the Panchen Lama?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Chock

That's all very nice in theory, but unfortunately what it boils down to, is the Dalai Lama buggering off to save his own skin and urging everyone else to sit there and take it while he lives in comfort. And it's apparent from the death toll what that has achieved, i.e. absolutely bugger all, apart from suffering for the people who stayed.

Don't often say this, but I completely agree with Waste Gate. The Dalai Lama is like someone on the edge of a brawl, urging others on while they stand there out of the danger themselves. If he was prepared to get his hands dirty along with all the others, I'd have a bit more respect for him, but as it is, he is just like virtually all religious leaders and figureheads, happy to let all the others do the dirty work. In that respect, he's no better than the ayatollahs who urge suicide bombers to their deeds but are not prepared to take that kind of action personally. What kind of 'good karma' does he think letting others carry the load will imbue him with?

And even if we take the view that he has chosen exile in order to help get the cause recognised by world leaders in other countries, we can see what a piss-poor job he has done of that too, as the actions of other countries to prevent attrocities to his people amount to zero.

Another reason why following any religion but one of your own making, is stupid. He will probably re-incarnate as a chocolate teapot, because he is about as much use as one.

Chock

You see it and judge it by the values of the Church, and Islam, and their dualistic views of the world. But Buddhism is no Asian pendant to these. As a young boy, btw, the Dalai Lama HAS confronted Chinese delegations, risking to get raided and kidnapped as a consequence for not obeying their demands.

Not for everybody fighting and military violance is acceptable, even when being attacked. For buddha, it was not. for Jesus, btw, it also was not. Why don't you complain that in thr story of the gosples Jesus did not ty tom escape from Getsemane, or did not told his students to resist injustice and opression with violence? to expect Tibetans that they should fight the chinese is a bit like demanding the Amish to serve in the military, or accuse ghandi to not have waged war against the British. You cannot have peace of mind and heart, and violant acting at the same time. Violance and peace are exclusive to each other.

Where I in the past years talked of war and reasons for it, I never said anything like "war in Buddha's or Jesus name", that simply is not possible. waging war is ALWAYS in violation of both men's teaching. Both men gave not a single excuse for fighting, violance, and war. When I accept to violate their teaching, it may be because I do not consider myself to be in the defense of either Buddhism or Christianity and their ethics. I'm neither the one, nor the other. I just consider both men, Jesus and Buddha, to have been reasonably wise, and to have talked about the same things.

"The spear in the others heart is the spear in your own - you are he." A dualistic thinking mind cannot understand what is meant by that - Diane Duane wrote this quote. And no, that is no Buddhist writer. It has nothing to do with religion or philosophy. Anyone knowing what it is? You'll have a laugh on this.

So now Christanity is the paradigm to follow. Not so in your cloaked anti-US thread regarding Christians in the military.

One day the folks on this board will awaken and see you for what you are Skybird.

[Chock]

You see it and judge it by the values of the Church, and Islam, and their dualistic views of the world. But Buddhism is no Asian pendant to these.

It's rather presumptious of you to determine that I judge things by the values of the Church, or in any other way for that matter. You don't know anything of how I form my judgements on this matter, for if you did, you'd certainly know that the last thing I use as a benchmark was the Church! And don't presume to teach me about religion either, I had the misfortune to be sent to Roman Catholic schools by my parents, and had that nonsense rammed down my throat for years, and that's no different from having communism, Islam or anything else forced on you from an early age. All such doctrines live by fear to a greater or lesser degree 'You'll go to hell' 'You'll get bad karma' etc, etc. Anyone in such a position is going to find it hard to break away from it and form their own opinion, but fortunately for me, I was bright enough to do so, instead of being held from such an intelligent choice by the fear that such doctrines perpetuate themselves with. All organised religions are about controlling people, and in that sense they are no worse than the Chinese also trying to control people, albeit through physical rather than mental threats to ones soul, karma or whatever. They're all threats, however you dress them up; the opium of the people, if you will.

Why don't you complain that in thr story of the gosples Jesus did not ty tom escape from Getsemane, or did not told his students to resist injustice and opression with violence?

I don't complain about Jesus or anyone else in this thread, simply because that's not what the thread, nor my response on the thread, was about.

Violance and peace are exclusive to each other.

Anyone who thinks that you cannot have peace of mind by acting in a warlike fashion would do well to remind themselves that it would have been kind of hard to sit out of WW2 and know that Jews, Gypsies etc etc were being persecuted and feel good about yourself. In the same way as it's not acceptable to me that someone can perpetuate forcing people to believe some nonsense that is putting them in harm's way while they sit in exile in another country with no threats coming their way.

Chock

[Skybird]

Chock,
I tried a reply three times, and always found what I should have known from the beginning: words are wasted here, it cannot be caught in words.

Let me just say this, then: I did not mean to attack you, if you felt like that. But beyond that statement, you either understand the logic behind the Dalai Lama's decision against violence, resistance, conflict, or you don't. If you don't, it is your work to get there, or not to try at all. Both decisions will influence you existence for they cause consequences of any subtle or massive kind, and you cannot avoid to bear these consequences, no matter if you or me or anyone understand the mechanism, or can forsee them, or not. It is not about guilt, or sin, it is about respmnsibility and consequences, just this.

If that view still is not acceptable to you, then see it pragmatic. You may see the Dalai Lama's decision as cowardish, or wrong, or whatever - but the overwheliming majority of tibetans obviously disagrees with you, and nevertheless supports him and stands behind him. And we can sefely assume that they are the real experts to judge their fate.