GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[KeptinCranky]

wanted to see that flower?

look here

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...postcount=4082

[Oldgamer48]

Nice pictures, Cranky!

I've had an encounter in the North Sea in which I had to make the decision to attack an escorted freighter in 83 meter water, or lay low and continue on to my patrol grid. I chose the latter.

In my last career (GWX2), I put an eel into a 5500-ton merchie in 15mps winds. Almost immediately, my soundman told me that a warship was closing at long range and high speed. I took the U-52 down to 160 meters, went silent, and turned north.

By the time the fellow got to my last known location and launched a dc attack, I was at a comfortable distance. He made two other dc attacks ... haven't got the foggiest notion what he was attacking ... and by this time, I had turned to the NE, still at silent running. I soon understood that the DD was hanging around my last position, listening, then making high speed runs. Eventually, I increased speed and continued to the NE.

About an hour later, I heard the merchie go down!

Ducimus, I want you to know that what you said in the OP is spot on, and I've made good use of it, in my "careers". It really helps to make sense of what is happening, at any given moment in combat.

And I never go above 100 rpms, when trying to be quiet!

[rik007]

Originally Posted by Oldgamer48

Nice pictures, Cranky!

I've had an encounter in the North Sea in which I had to make the decision to attack an escorted freighter in 83 meter water, or lay low and continue on to my patrol grid. I chose the latter.

In my last career (GWX2), I put an eel into a 5500-ton merchie in 15mps winds. Almost immediately, my soundman told me that a warship was closing at long range and high speed. I took the U-52 down to 160 meters, went silent, and turned north.

By the time the fellow got to my last known location and launched a dc attack, I was at a comfortable distance. He made two other dc attacks ... haven't got the foggiest notion what he was attacking ... and by this time, I had turned to the NE, still at silent running. I soon understood that the DD was hanging around my last position, listening, then making high speed runs. Eventually, I increased speed and continued to the NE.

About an hour later, I heard the merchie go down!

Ducimus, I want you to know that what you said in the OP is spot on, and I've made good use of it, in my "careers". It really helps to make sense of what is happening, at any given moment in combat.

And I never go above 100 rpms, when trying to be quiet!

These kind of experiences make SH3+GWX such a great game. You will remember these adventures for a long time.

[Oldgamer48]

@rik007

These kind of experiences make SH3+GWX such a great game. You will remember these adventures for a long time.

Exactly! The developers of GWX and SH3 both wanted to create an immersive experience with a game that was only marginally so (in the stock form), and they succeeded marvelously. Ubisoft ought to donate to them, given the number of units they've sold just for the mods ...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oldgamer48

@rik007

Exactly! The developers of GWX and SH3 both wanted to create an immersive experience with a game that was only marginally so (in the stock form), and they succeeded marvelously. Ubisoft ought to donate to them, given the number of units they've sold just for the mods ...

Agreed

[kiwikapitan]

Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread that DCs did not have the power to shake a u-boat's hull. Well I think this disproves that. A nerve-wracking excerpt from my fave sub book 'Hirschfeld'.

"The inferno broke loose with such devastating violence it seemed that a volcano had erupted around the boat. I wondered how the pressure hull could possibly withstand it. The main lighting slowly failed. The unbelievable din of fifteen great thunderclaps one after the other shook and rolled the submarine, an endless cascade of almost unendurable sound. Then the reverberations growled away and the emergency lighting flickered on." Pgs 38, 39.

A brilliant book with very descriptive accounts. Also I love the sounds that GWX uses for the DCs. Actually I hate them but that's another story.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by kiwikapitan

Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread that DCs did not have the power to shake a u-boat's hull.

Now that quote I would love to see

[jas39]

Originally Posted by Oldgamer48

Nice pictures, Cranky!


And I never go above 100 rpms, when trying to be quiet!

How do you know how many rpms the engine is running at?

[Jimbuna]

In the control room there's a rpm guage upper left of the planesmen

[Catfish]

Hello,
i have been away a long time for real life reasons, but i just installed SH3 again and this new GWX2 mod. Thanks for that excellent work, however i do have a question on that Ueber-AI.

The game date is october 1940, daylight, and there is a convoy so far away i can only see one silhouette of a large freighter. Next i am shelled by an invisible destroyer (?), that is directed at me. I "saw" this with external camera on, i did not even see his smoke from my position. How could he possibly have seen me ? There is no way a 4-stacker or any ship would see a U-boat at that distance (12 km or so) visually, let alone electronically with its poor Radar of 1939 (if it already was fitted with one at that time).

Next i dive, and this 4-stacker goes directly at me (changed speed and course at periscope depth without ever using the Periscope). But regardless what evasive manoeuvre i do, which depth or whatever, this thing goes directly at me. I could as well have stayed at the surface waving a flag.
For evading I did all that was written in the first post of this thread, but this "thing" knows exactly where i am, and at which depth - depth charges exploding at perfect depth and directly at the hull of my boat.
Not alone that, but after sinking to the ground and silent running with stopped engines this ship makes one attack after the other, dropping charges and not even missing for inches.
I do not want to complain, just what did you do with that AI ? I can understand this happening after late 1942 (certainly not that quality of an attack), but i think here at this date and location (Western approaches) this looks completely exaggerated.

edit: i forgot - if a destroyer pings, you will hear it in the boat, whether you are in his detection cone or not - it does not tell you whether he really sees you. So you better don't go to full ahead - at least in reality - or only for two seconds.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hi,
just to throw in some info from reread book chapters, the trick of the U-boats in the early war was to go in surfaced at night like a "Schnellboot", shoot from less than 400 meters if possible, and just keep up speed and reload. Diving was only done in almost hopeless conditions.
This is why escorts had a hard time, their ASDIC was useless against surfaced targets. Radar did not work under 1000-1500 meters, and not above 8000 meters. As well most escorts simply did not have radar until 1942. There is certainly propaganda still active today.
And there are numerous witness reports of U-boat crews that escort ships were passed at less than 300 meters, and they did not even see the U-boat. Even when they did see it and both had different courses they would pass each other so quickly that the U-boat did not need to dive, because the escort would lose the sub anyway in the next seconds - but try this in GWX and you'll be dead already in 1939

Greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hello,
an additional info, a U-boat or submarine can not be detected by surface ASDIC or Sonar when it is at periscope depth - the surface noise makes it vanish from the screen in anything else than perfectly flat calm seas, and even a very flat-adjusted detection cone will not really detect it.
Mr Topp said he almost never dived to more than 30 meters for that reason.
The real U-boat skippers considered this sim much too hard, and this was the vanilla version ... i begin to understand why my performance sucks lol.
Anyway it is fun, but real life tactics do not work here
Greetings,
Catfish

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Catfish

There is certainly propaganda still active today.

Well, it was quite nice of you to imply that we are have not accounted for false 'propaganda.' I really hope that I am reading you wrong.

What you are stating is your opinion concerning the modification of the AI sensors in GWX based on information as you interpret it. Naturally, you are entitled to it.

However, I think it is more likely that you are simply doing something wrong that readily leaves your U-boat wide open to detection.

Dead men cannot speak, and the living can only speculate. Furthermore, real life sensors were subject to a host of environmental factors that are not modelled in SH3.

Modifications to GWX AI sensors were made with the intent to produce historically plausible situations and outcomes, to the best of our abilities... within an entire series of game and code limitations.

What you must understand, is that the AI itself cannot be altered as it is hard coded... SH3 modders can only alter the AI's perceptions of its environment. The ASW modding knowledge pool for SH3 was built over months of difficult trial and error, and will remain an imperfect beast.

The AI should punish dumb mistakes... In stock SH3 escorts/DD's/AI response is boneheaded and thick beyond belief IMHO... allowing total distruction of convoys and taskforces with virtually no risk to the player.

For those claiming that GWX AI response is overly harsh... Horse-muffins! It is most certainly surviveable assuming you are willing to give up bad habits... like watching torpedo detonations... target fixation... or slugging it out with aircraft... surface attacks in broad daylight... forgetting to engage silent running... etc.

If you read "The U-boat Commander's Handbook" you will find that you can absolutely survive to the end of the war. (If you don't mind running an unrealistic 54 patrols!)

Having observed countless debates and whinges claiming that the AI in GWX was either too weak or too strong... honestly leaves me with the feeling that we've executed a competent modification of sensor settings.

It would serve you well to read beyond just the first post of this thread, and to again review appendix "C" in the GWX manual.

Other members have already demonstrated that such things as surface attacks in GWX are quite possible (although difficult.) If you cannot adjust to the effectiveness of sensors in 1939... you haven't got a prayer in later years.

I also suggest that you read this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134930

Speaking for GWX, if you aren't happy with the AI response... feel free to find a mod that is good for you. You are entitled to your opinion... and your interpretation of how data might be interpreted into game code. The enemy AI in GWX though, is what it is.