Free Kosovo!

[CCIP]

I'd be quite careful drawing this in mindless black-and-white here. Kosovo is a notoriously grey area, with my own suspicions falling more on the Albanians for foul play; and certainly the "apartheid" in Kosovo at the moment is very much of their own design. Of course noone ever accused Milosevic of being a godsend, either.

[Chock]

You have to consider that voices calling for the US to back this call for independence are probably less concerned with these people's freedom and more interested in using them as pawns to poke the Russians in the eye. And it's not hard to see that, even when you've been poked in both eyes.

The article linked on the original post warns of the dangers of unilateral moves, and lessons learned from other recent overtures of this nature, and then goeas on to suggest that the US should make another one, which, if for no other reason, makes me question just how smart the person is who wrote the piece if he doesn't even spot the contradiction in his assertion.

Chock

Why doesn't Europe clean up this mess? The EU could not be accused of moving unilaterally and it would keep the US out of it. Which from what I can tell is what most Europeans want..........the imperialist US out.

[Skybird]

I wish Kosovo simply would not exist. It is a no win-no win situation for Europe. The whole damn Balkan should be put into a rocketship and shot up to the moon. Nothing but troubles coming from there. Albanian Mafia, Islam, Serbian nationalism, Russian interference, EU naivety - what a nice mixture for a totally messed up situation. I am sure we haven't yet seen the last war over it.

[Chock]

Well, technically, the UN is still presiding over the situation, so that precludes European nations from sorting it without having a mandate from the UN to do so, something the US would be likely to block since it would give carte blanche to the Russians by virtue of proxy control of other Baltic states (just as Russia is blocking overtures in the other direction), so that one is out. Many of those newly independent states may have declared independence from Russia's old Soviet control, but they are still spiritually more in tune with Russia than anywhere else, and they can see which way the wind blows just as well as anyone else too (one look at the block voting on something as trivial as the Eurovision Song Contest will confirm the truth of that). So with that in mind, if for example, you asked the EU to try and sort it instead, they'd spend ten years trying to decide where to have an initial fact finding meeting about the thing, and then another ten years working out the seating plan at that meeting, because the individual countries of the EU are also not averse to having fingers in pies too, so they are not likely to easily reach a conscensus on matters either.

But, joking aside, this is a problem that has been around since the year dot, because we are talking about the region which was traditionally the crossroads of Europe during the days of the Holy Roman Empire (both strategically and culturally), and so you are also talking about cultural clashes and differences in even fundamental views on life as well, before you even get to any race issues. Then as now, the region is a hotspot for the clash between muslim beliefs and more traditionally 'western' religions, and is of course still the crossroads of Europe as far as many immigrants who come via Italy to Europe proper see it, which of course is part of why Russia was backing the Serbs in the first place, as it was seen as another front in defending against such incursions, which of course was why the US was keen to come down on the other side, to make life harder for its traditional Cold War enemy and so on ad infinitum. So all that adds to the complexity of any US involvement clashing with Russia's co-operation with the US and other western nations in the 'war on terror' or at least its appearance of cooperation on the war on terror.

When you think about all that, it's not hard to see why there is an impasse, there are a lot of fingers in pies, for a lot of reasons, and as ever, the people on the ground are the ones who end up suffering.

Incidentally, I was training a woman from Serbia on Photoshop just last week (she was very nice - Ivana, her name is), and we were joking about national traits. She mentioned that the Brits were notorious for going on drunken rampages when abroad (she had worked in Greece for a while - a typical cheap package holiday destination for British louts), but then quantified that by saying 'Don't worry, that's not meant to be an insult, after all, we Serbians have the reputation of stealing anything that isn't nailed down! and that's a fairly accurate assertion'. So if even she is prepared to admit they are trouble, what does that tell you?

Chock

Originally Posted by Chock

Well, technically, the UN is still presiding over the situation, so that precludes European nations from sorting it without having a mandate from the UN to do so, something the US would be likely to block since it would give carte blanche to the Russians by virtue of proxy control of other Baltic states (just as Russia is blocking overtures in the other direction), so that one is out. Many of those newly independent states may have declared independence from Russia's old Soviet control, but they are still spiritually more in tune with Russia than anywhere else, and they can see which way the wind blows just as well as anyone else too (one look at the block voting on something as trivial as the Eurovision Song Contest will confirm the truth of that). So with that in mind, if for example, you asked the EU to try and sort it instead, they'd spend ten years trying to decide where to have an initial fact finding meeting about the thing, and then another ten years working out the seating plan at that meeting, because the individual countries of the EU are also not averse to having fingers in pies too, so they are not likely to easily reach a conscensus on matters either.

But, joking aside, this is a problem that has been around since the year dot, because we are talking about the region which was traditionally the crossroads of Europe during the days of the Holy Roman Empire (both strategically and culturally), and so you are also talking about cultural clashes and differences in even fundamental views on life as well, before you even get to any race issues. Then as now, the region is a hotspot for the clash between muslim beliefs and more traditionally 'western' religions, and is of course still the crossroads of Europe as far as many immigrants who come via Italy to Europe proper see it, which of course is part of why Russia was backing the Serbs in the first place, as it was seen as another front in defending against such incursions, which of course was why the US was keen to come down on the other side, to make life harder for its traditional Cold War enemy and so on ad infinitum. So all that adds to the complexity of any US involvement clashing with Russia's co-operation with the US and other western nations in the 'war on terror' or at least its appearance of cooperation on the war on terror.

When you think about all that, it's not hard to see why there is an impasse, there are a lot of fingers in pies, for a lot of reasons, and as ever, the people on the ground are the ones who end up suffering.

Chock

I don't know too much about the region but based on the reports I've seen some nation, or coalition of nations needs to step up. I realize it won't be easy but nothing worth doing ever is. Forget the UN its nothing more than a debating society for puny despots and would-be tyrants. It would be a great opportunity for some second tier nation to make a mark for itsself and become a player on the world scene. All it takes is the political will. France is a good candidate.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I don't know too much about the region but based on the reports I've seen some nation, or coalition of nations needs to step up. I realize it won't be easy but nothing worth doing ever is. Forget the UN its nothing more than a debating society for puny despots and would-be tyrants.

Um, the UN have been governing Kosovo since 1999, bringing the first province-wide free elections. One might say that they have stepped up.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

LMAO this is sooo funny....


NOT



how the hell is kosovo apartheid read your history, it was serbian and it is, albanians illegally moved in and are commiting genocide agaisnt the orthodox serbs



http://www.serbianna.com/columns/jevtic/016.shtml




someone supports terrorists

U.S. intelligence officials are investigating ties between the terrorists who carried out suicide airliner attacks and associates of Osama bin Laden based in Albania.

The connections were described as support for the terrorist operation to hijack U.S. commercial jetliners and crash them into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, according to U.S. intelligence officials.
No further details of the support could be learned.

One official said intelligence reports about the Albanian connection to the attacks is one of several leads being pursued overseas by the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies.

Bin Laden and his organization, al Qaeda, are believed to have small groups of terrorists or supporters in 50 to 60 nations, including Albania, according to U.S. officials.

Asked if getting bin Laden is the U.S. goal, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell told reporters yesterday that "we are after the al Qaeda network."
"It's not one individual," Mr. Powell said. "It's lots of individuals, and it's lots of cells. ... Osama bin Laden is the chairman of a holding company. And within that holding company are terrorist cells and organizations in dozens of countries around the world."

The administration's war on terrorism will "start with that one individual" — bin Laden.

"It will not be over until we have gotten into the inside of this organization, inside its decision cycle, inside its planning cycle, inside its execution capability, and until we have neutralized and destroyed it," Mr. Powell said. "That's our objective."


Greater Albania, the final goal of the Albanian terrorists, through occupation of all desired territories belonging to neighboring countries. The map in this form was issued by Albanian nationalists.

Albania is one of several places U.S. intelligence agencies are focusing their resources — from human agents to electronic eavesdropping.

Since the mid-1990s, bin Laden associates have been based in Tirana, Albania's capital, as well as in at least two other towns in the small, formerly communist nation, U.S. officials said.

Islamic radicals, including supporters of bin Laden, have been supporting Albanian rebels fighting in the region, including members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. Intelligence officials have said there are reports that KLA members have been trained at bin Laden training camps in Afghanistan.
Bin Laden and his Islamic extremist group, al Qaeda, are the main suspects in last week's terrorist attacks.

As of last year, the group operated a residence in Tirana, and the CIA has been pressing Albania's government to expel all associates of the Islamic terrorists.

According to U.S. officials, bin Laden gained a foothold in Albania in 1994 by portraying himself to the government there as a wealthy Saudi national who was in charge of a humanitarian agency that could help Albania.
On Sept. 11, 2001, al Qaeda hijacked two jets and
Albanian intelligence believes terrorists have benefited from the theft of some 1,000 blank Albanian passports that were stolen during riots in 1997, according to a 1998 report in the London Sunday Telegraph.

Since the attack, the FBI has detained 49 persons, many of whom appear to be of Middle Eastern descent. Four of the detainees were are identified as "material witnesses" to the Sept. 11 attacks. None has been identified by nationality and the passports they used to enter the United States also have not been identified.

In 1998, U.S. and Albanian authorities broke up an Islamic terrorist cell in Albania and arrested two members of the bin Laden group.

The CIA was able to obtain a large quantity of documents and computer equipment that led to further arrests. Two members of the group, Egyptian nationals, were turned over to anti-terrorist police in Egypt that year.
"Bin Laden's group has a network in Albania," said former CIA counterterrorism official Vince Cannistraro.

"This looks like the support operation [for the U.S. attacks] was worldwide," he said of reports of the Albanian connection.

Albanian Police Chief Bilbil Mema told Agence France-Presse on Thursday that Albania had ceased to be a safe haven for terrorism. "In Albania there is no longer an Islamic threat," Mr. Mema was quoted as saying. "This country is no longer a refuge for Islamic terrorists."

Albanian security and intelligence authorities, in cooperation with the CIA, had "successfully led operations aimed at destroying the network that Islamic terrorists have attempted to establish in this country," Mr. Mema said.
..................
whole text with pics is on
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/w...ge.asp?nid=452

[AntEater]

The Article is a load of crap.

First of all, there's no such thing as a nation of Kosovo.
This is a territory inhabited by the various balkans people, in varying compositions.
Borders are arbitrary on the Balkans, as every people live practically everywhere.
The historic claim of the Serbs is stronger, but demographically of course the Albanians are more, especially since 1999, as NATO enabled the Albanians to do to the Serbs what the Serbs had tried to do to them.
One of those strange examples for that before 911, western interventions always tended to be helping muslims against christians.
Any notion of a "multi-ethnical" Kosovo is simply refusing the realities. If NATO would withdraw, Albanians (who vastly outnumber Serbs now) would start massacring the Serbs. An independent Kosovo will mean an Exodus of Serbs anyway.
The easiest way out would be simply to let Serbia annex the northern Part, which is predominantly Serb while Albania gets the South.
Strangely enough the "real" Albania does not want to have much to do with Kosovo. Maybe that is because Albania is pretty secular and mixed christian and muslim, while our Kosovarian friends are quite Islamist (nice friends the US has, again).
The Serbs undeservedly are still seen as something of a bad boy of the Balkans.
Actually from my experience the average Serb is a lot more western minded than the average Albanian.

The Problem is, an independent Kosovo would be about the equal as if the US had given Pablo Escobar or Manuel Noriega their own cartel nation in latin america.
All the "Democrats" in that region are the very same people who supply Europe with drugs and prostitution.
This not claimed by the Serbs but (among others) by the German BND, an institution which is hardly suspect of being pro-Serb as it spin doctored quite a lot in the Balkans war.
An independent Kosovo would be Mafiastan, nothing less. I'm not sure why many european politicians are so hell bent on Kosovo independence. Either they're stupid or bribed, or a mixture of both.
There have been cases where the police was told by german federal authorities not to implicate certain Kosovarians in Drug busts.

It is amazing what an amount of wishful thinking is involved in the Balkans.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by AntEater

The Article is a load of crap.

First of all, there's no such thing as a nation of Kosovo.
This is a territory inhabited by the various balkans people, in varying compositions.
Borders are arbitrary on the Balkans, as every people live practically everywhere.
The historic claim of the Serbs is stronger, but demographically of course the Albanians are more, especially since 1999, as NATO enabled the Albanians to do to the Serbs what the Serbs had tried to do to them.
One of those strange examples for that before 911, western interventions always tended to be helping muslims against christians.
Any notion of a "multi-ethnical" Kosovo is simply refusing the realities. If NATO would withdraw, Albanians (who vastly outnumber Serbs now) would start massacring the Serbs. An independent Kosovo will mean an Exodus of Serbs anyway.
The easiest way out would be simply to let Serbia annex the northern Part, which is predominantly Serb while Albania gets the South.
Strangely enough the "real" Albania does not want to have much to do with Kosovo. Maybe that is because Albania is pretty secular and mixed christian and muslim, while our Kosovarian friends are quite Islamist (nice friends the US has, again).
The Serbs undeservedly are still seen as something of a bad boy of the Balkans.
Actually from my experience the average Serb is a lot more western minded than the average Albanian.

The Problem is, an independent Kosovo would be about the equal as if the US had given Pablo Escobar or Manuel Noriega their own cartel nation in latin america.
All the "Democrats" in that region are the very same people who supply Europe with drugs and prostitution.
This not claimed by the Serbs but (among others) by the German BND, an institution which is hardly suspect of being pro-Serb as it spin doctored quite a lot in the Balkans war.
An independent Kosovo would be Mafiastan, nothing less. I'm not sure why many european politicians are so hell bent on Kosovo independence. Either they're stupid or bribed, or a mixture of both.
There have been cases where the police was told by german federal authorities not to implicate certain Kosovarians in Drug busts.

It is amazing what an amount of wishful thinking is involved in the Balkans.

This is 100% same, what i think of Kosovo, thanks for writing it.

[STEED]

Dodgy thread.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

This is 100% same, what i think of Kosovo, thanks for writing it.

i agree with everything EXCEPT the part of giving serbia only the northern part... kosovo is 100% serbian, historically it was ours and should be ours, ALBANIANS should go back to albania , simple as that...

most of what you said is on the dot

[Otto Von Strunf]

this is how things is: if kosovo become independent all serbs from kosovo will move to east bosnia (republic of srpska) and ower there thay will become majoriti. calculating on this if kosovo can separate from serbia, than rep. srpska can separate from bosnia. and conect to serbia. that is serbian plan and if thay can do that than they win BUT bosnian goverment want alow splitting, and croatia vants hercegovina (south part of bosnia with croatian major population) so we hawe a WAR again. I live in croatia and i dont care about politic but only war that i want is virtual. If this scenario becomes a true, than God help us all

[joea]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'd be quite careful drawing this in mindless black-and-white here. Kosovo is a notoriously grey area, with my own suspicions falling more on the Albanians for foul play; and certainly the "apartheid" in Kosovo at the moment is very much of their own design. Of course noone ever accused Milosevic of being a godsend, either.

Agree 100% with this.

I hope elite_hunter_sh3's posts won't stop the rest of you from looking at the other side.