Sound contacts on the surface?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

the only thing that makes me doubt this is the actual sub. the 2 hull mounted sensors are underwater, arent these used to send and detect active sonar, not detect propeller sounds?

the hydrophone listening device is ABOVE water level so how could it detect sound travellin through the water? thats my understanding on it anyways, has anyone got any hard facts to prove otherwise?

There were two heads and both did different things. Passive and active sonar. But again, the chin mounted sonar could hear supersonic sounds.


Good reading here on this:

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/sonar/index.htm

[Rockin Robbins]

Read the Fine Manual which Luke posted earlier in the thread. It makes it clear that operators were trained to perform screw counts with the underhull sensors while the submarine is surfaced. This is minimal information that only tells us that yes, the underwater sensors were manned while the sub was surfaced. Yes, they expected to be able to detect contacts and conduct screw counts to judge speed. So Laffertytig was out of line. <SLAP!> (hey it worked for Gen Patton).:rotfl:

But the manual can never tell us how effective these sensors were under different conditions. That calls for submarine contact logs or primary sources. I would suggest tater would be a good consult on this to see if contact logs have enough information to help us.

[Laffertytig]

haha yeah slap accepted Mr Rock, i admit i was wrong to question the undoubtable research that was put into RFB
so we just assume that these two heads that are on the hull are handled abstractly by ouR AI crewman and carry on sinkin the IJN!

so does anyone if weather state affects radar or sonar then? either in vanilla or in any of the mods?
ive not long purchased SH4 so i wasnt keepin tabs on any of the modding that was goin on

[AVGWarhawk]

@Laff,

The only thing that affects sonar in the game is having thermal layers. This does reduce the DD effectivness in detecting you. Other than that, weather and sea state do not affect sonar within the game that I'm aware of.

[Laffertytig]

well we certainly have taken a big step forward with sonar/radar in the SH series havent we!:hmm:

im pretty sure there was a lot of work done with this in SH3. maybe some mod dudes could shed some light on this as im sure the functions to mod this are there in SH4

hey warhawk just curious, what mods do u use if u dont use RFB?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

haha yeah slap accepted Mr Rock, i admit i was wrong to question the undoubtable research that was put into RFB
so we just assume that these two heads that are on the hull are handled abstractly by ouR AI crewman and carry on sinkin the IJN!

so does anyone if weather state affects radar or sonar then? either in vanilla or in any of the mods?
ive not long purchased SH4 so i wasnt keepin tabs on any of the modding that was goin on

If you read the manual you're left with the feeling that it would be really cool to be able to get your hands and ears on some of the nuts and bolts of being a WWII sonar tech. "Abstractly" about covers it with what we get, although we can ping targets in a kinda hands-on manner that I like.

RFB is really worth following because the original modder, Beery, burned out and left it in the hands of LukeFF. Hopefully Beery looks in now and then to see how his baby is doing, because Luke shows signs of the same hard-headed "show me the evidence" single mindedness that made Beery's mod so good and so different form Trigger Maru.

And I'm a Trigger Maru fan now. Once I understood the mindset of Ducimus and why he made the choices he did, I enjoyed TM so much I never went back. Lately Ducimus has caught the realism bug and yielded to some of the complaining. When a modder loses command of his mod it's time to play taps. I'm a strong believer that a mod should reflect what the modder thinks is right and he should yield to no one if he believes he is right. Focus is the most important thing to have for a second level mod like RFB or TM. The modder's opinion needs to be the final word or he ends up chasing other people's problems when he has enough of his own. Here I am sounding like Darth GWX again!:rotfl:

Luke has what it takes. Ducimus has it too, but he's worn down. He'll be ok if he can get a little time playing the game and getting his house situation in order. Obsessive Modding Disorder is a terminal illness.

[AVGWarhawk]

RR:
although we can ping targets in a kinda hands-on manner that I like.

This needs some work as well. I do not believe the DD pick up your pings. They are listening just like we are but when pinged there seems to be no reaction. But, yeah, pinging a merchant for range is a help!

[Ducimus]

However, the cries of the wrong have been so loud that even Ducimus has removed surface contacts from sonar in Trigger Maru

I removed surface hydrophone contacts of my own volition. My reasons were thus.

1.) it was interfering with the radar sensor. A sporatic problem, but it occured often enough that it bugged me.

2.) The reliablity was a little TOO good. With hdyrophones being so accurate and relaible, it eclipsed the need for radar.

3.) Made searching for traffic in the earlly war, entirely too easy.


I have tried experimenting with the sensors.cfg to limit its effectiveness on the surface, and failed to make any progress on that. Had i been able to reduce it so you can't hear anything when traveling above 4 or 5 kts, i would have renabled surface hydrophone contacts. Since i couldnt, i left it disabled.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

[1.) it was interfering with the radar sensor. A sporatic problem, but it occured often enough that it bugged me.

You're right on that one. It seems that SH4 argues with itself about which sensor to show since it can only show one at a time. If it defaulted to radar we wouldn't even have to worry about it except for on a sub without radar.

I still have a problem with not being able to ping targets while on the surface. I consider that a much bigger defect than the problem, as long as the sub has radar.

And while we're complaining, why can't we feed radar bearing and distance to the TDC like the real skippers did? Even if they let us manually input the bearing and range, it would have been OK. But we're stuck inputting bearing with periscope only and manually inputting range only within 1100 yards or so. I think that's also a worse defect than anything going on with the sonar. And it's not moddable.

[AVGWarhawk]

2.) The reliablity was a little TOO good. With hdyrophones being so accurate and relaible, it eclipsed the need for radar.

Excellent assessment Duci and well founded. Although they could use the sonar on the surface, it is to good in the game as noted. Perhaps one day that issue can be sorted out.

Just a note and maybe something you looked into, is it possible to limit the reach on the sonar while surfaced? If so, perhaps this is the answer to clipping how good it is?

[Ducimus]

>>is it possible to limit the reach on the sonar while surfaced?

As in distance? I don't think its possible. The variables we have to work with, only define its geometric shape. The only way it distguishes between surfaced and surbmerged is a variable that defines the upper limit of its geometric search area in relation to the surface of the ocean.

[Laffertytig]

when u put it like that ducimus i can see why u removed sonar on the surface. maybe one day we will have a realistic sonar and radar suite but until then i reckon your way seems the best way

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

>>is it possible to limit the reach on the sonar while surfaced?

As in distance? I don't think its possible. The variables we have to work with, only define its geometric shape. The only way it distguishes between surfaced and surbmerged is a variable that defines the upper limit of its geometric search area in relation to the surface of the ocean.

So then is it possible to adjust this geometric search area when the sub is surfaced? If so, make it a smaller area thus clipping the sonar into a tighter circle of detection area?

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

RFB is really worth following because the original modder, Beery, burned out and left it in the hands of LukeFF. Hopefully Beery looks in now and then to see how his baby is doing, because Luke shows signs of the same hard-headed "show me the evidence" single mindedness that made Beery's mod so good and so different form Trigger Maru.

...

Luke has what it takes. Ducimus has it too, but he's worn down. He'll be ok if he can get a little time playing the game and getting his house situation in order. Obsessive Modding Disorder is a terminal illness.

Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I'm not in charge of RFB, but rather swdw holds than honor. I just tweak things and run them by him for inclusion into the mod.

[swdw]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I'm not in charge of RFB, but rather swdw holds than honor. I just tweak things and run them by him for inclusion into the mod.

Now wait a minute Luke- RFB belongs to everyone and anyone that works on it. It'd take me a LONNNGG time to catch up to half your knowledge on modding.

That's why I've asked for help from people like you. BTW, there's offers of help (starting with small things) from a couple of old timers that have been away for a while. So RFB should continue to grow using the talents of experienced people even with a rookie trying to read the compass heading.