GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[Gorshkov]

Theoretically all your hints are right. Surely many times it is possible to sunk enemy shipping and escape to safety using described above tactics. Unfortunately also many times I and many other players experienced an "uber-AI" DD succesful attack on my U-boot in situations when it was simply impossible to detect and track my sub.

This is my biggest accusation relating to GWX mod.

However I must also admit that I can't hit Allied merchants quite often because I haven't mastered fully manual torpedo targeting "three minutes rule" so far.

By the way: Is it any remarkable difference between DD's AI efficiency in GWX and NYGM mods?

[TarJak]

Clearly it was not impossible otherwise the sensors would not have picked you up. If you can give an example of a situation where you should not get detected maybe we can provide some advice on how to avoid detection.

The first posts of this thread provide a good idea of how to beat the escorts and attack.

GWX requires a shift in mindset and tactics from stock SHIII. Using tactics that avoid detection is required for success with GWX. Stock was way too easy to get away with chugging in at any old speed to attack a convoy.

It took me about 2 nights of practise to come up with ways of sneaking in without detection and now I do it without thinking about it. Sometimes I don't think enough so I end up getting detected as well. That's when learning how to evade comes in. Dive as deep as you dare and then either stop engines and go silent or drop your revs and slooooowly cruise. Only make turns using <10 degrees rudder to keep you going at 2kt. When you hear engines and splashes above, hit flank but make sure you stop flank in less than 30 seconds after the last DC explosion. It's pretty simple stuff and it works very well on single DD's, less well when there are a number of them but sometimes it still works even then.

This guy cruised past me at 35kt and didn't even drop a DC!


Don't relax until you are well clear of them and don't do snap turns unless you are in a situation where they DEFINITELY cannot hear you.

[Gorshkov]

How could he drop DCs if he couldn't hear you at all?

I don't use type IX crappy behemot at all if possible! It is too easy target for enemy warships. Its advanteges are very illusory but weaknesses - very deleterious.

I always prefer type VIIC instead.

[TarJak]

Correct he couldn't hear me even though I was travelling at 2kt but sped up to standard once in his baffles. I trailed along behind him running up to flank for another hour without him hearing me at all.

BTW that is a Type VIIC not a IX. I use both and both are pretty good when used properly although the IX is a bigger target. I quite like the IXD2.

[ref]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

How could he drop DCs if he couldn't hear you at all?

I don't use type IX crappy behemot at all if possible! It is too easy target for enemy warships. Its advanteges are very illusory but weaknesses - very deleterious.

I always prefer type VIIC instead.

The sea state is very important also, in a calm sea even at 2 knots there's a big chance that they can pick you up, also remember that even if a DD is making an attack run at high speed if there's another in the vicinity it is certainly at low speed using his passive sensors and guiding the other.

The bottom line is, and forgive me if I'm rude, is that GWX sensors will remain the way they are, what we're trying to do is to simulate the conditions a uboat captain had to endure during the war, even so the chances of surviving in GWX are far better than they had in real life, if you don't like them, or you can't learn how to play well enough, you can always uninstall GWX, there are other excelent mods that you can try untill you find one that's easy enough for your skill levels.

Ref

[melnibonian]

Well said Ref

As an "old GWX player" myself I have to say that Penny, TJ and ref are spot on. The AI of GWX is tricky and as the years get by is becoming more and more deadly but that doesn't mean you cannot survive. If you follow the advices of Penny and TJ and you try to incorporate them in your own type of play I am sure you will see that outsmarting the DDs is difficult (later in the war) but not impossible. Another option you have is to alter the realism levels you're playing. Lower them a bit, give it a try and start to increase them as you get more confortable with your boat and the game. Finally don't forget that most of the U-Boats that went on patrols never came back (especially after 1943) due to the allied air patrols (planes were the single higher killer of U-Boats) and the escorts. This trend is followed and modelled in GWX although as ref said it is not as difficult to survive as it was in real life.

In any case remember that it's just a game and try to enjoy it in any way you can. If you still feel not happy with the AI of GWX you can either try to alter the files on your own (it's a bit difficult and probably will cause trouble to your installation) or you can chose another mod.

Enjoy your SH3 experience and I hope you find the game/technique/mod that suits your type of play

[Gorshkov]

Let's clear one thing here. I have played only stock SHIII until recently. Now I switched to GWX mod because I heard many opinions it is the best SHIII mod available. What I discovered immediately is a big hole between GWX mod and stock game in dealing with convoy's escort. So I reviewed other opinions in this matter on the Internet and found similar points of view.
Unfortunately I don't know any other SHIII mod and that is why I can't compare each other in terms of AI difficulty level. Yet if you write here it is possible to master hunting convoys in the GWX mod but with a huge amount of time and work needed, it is all OK. I like ambitious challenges!

As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.

[ref]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Let's clear one thing here. I have played only stock SHIII until recently. Now I switched to GWX mod because I heard many opinions it is the best SHIII mod available. What I discovered immediately is a big hole between GWX mod and stock game in dealing with convoy's escort. So I reviewed other opinions in this matter on the Internet and found similar points of view.
Unfortunately I don't know any other SHIII mod and that is why I can't compare each other in terms of AI difficulty level. Yet if you write here it is possible to master hunting convoys in the GWX mod but with a huge amount of time and work needed, it is all OK. I like ambitious challenges!

As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.

The best advice I can give you is patience, don't guide yourself by how hollywood movies depict submarine attacks, plan carefully before engaging combat, study the behaviour of the escorts for holes in their patterns (even if you need to let them pass away the first time), let the convoy approach you, not you approach it, try to point your sub towards the convoy to give a smaller surface and steer to a fire position at the last moment , if you miss the entrance window pull back and try again later (remember that if you're detected the escorts remain at higher alert state for a few hours), if the weather is in the extremes (too bad or too good) it goes against you, and more important don't get greedy, pick a couple of targets in a convoy shoot two or three eels at each and run, start evasive maneuvers before the escorts start seeking you, go at least 90 mts deep as fast as you can without drawing too much attention and then goto 2 knots (1 better), pick the fastest way out, go to a safe distance and then flank speed to start the attack again, if you stay at pd in the middle of the convoy watching the fireworks or waiting for another target you're almost dead.

Ref

[melnibonian]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.

I think Ref covered the isse in his response. What I want to say is that GWX is significantly easier to survive late in the war than in reality. It is true that it is difficult to survive but if you follow the advices posted above you will manage to do it. GWX is the most popular mod not because the AI is deadly but because it manages to keep a fine balance between simulation and game pleasure. Most players find it difficult in the begining but after a while you will learn to play and think as a real U-Boat Captain (within the limitations of the game engine obviously) and the game will become an addiction. GWX is a really good game and if you are patient you will have loads of hours of happy play time. My suggestion as I said before is to follow the advices of the other Captains, lower the realism settings to get yourself confortable with the game and the boat and feel free to ask questions in the forum.

[Jimbuna]

[quote=Gorshkov] Yet if you write here it is possible to master hunting convoys in the GWX mod but with a huge amount of time and work needed, it is all OK. I like ambitious challenges!
quote]

Then GWX is definitely for you.

[quote=Gorshkov]As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.
quote]

Can't possibly comment on what the game developers did, and or why
But I can say that IMO, this is the fine balancing act the GWX team have laboured long and hard over.............how to mix immersion and realism and accuracy into a commodity that best pleases as many people as possible.

[Gorshkov]

I was convinced by your comments so I'll try to master GWX convoy battles altrough I know it can take long time.

If I feel watching sinking ships is too painful I definately resign playing SHIII but now my VIIC U-boot departs on patrol from Keroman base. Bye!

One more question for you: Is it much easier to fight convoys in GWX mod using type XXI sub during 1944-1945 time period?

[bigboywooly]

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

Amen to that brother

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

How far out does Allied radar reach in those years?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

How far out does Allied radar reach in those years?

Surface or airborne? :hmm: