Idea concerning further SH series

[Peto]

I can understand your desire for this. It would be a nice feature to be able to check out the boat and crew. Still--I would vote against it. The reason is simple: Modelling everything in such detail would take a tremendous amount of effort and could easily detract from the meat & potatos of the sim.

I would rather see that effort put into further AI enhancement/more realism options/more dynamic modelling of the boats (each one would be a little unique--crush depth varies etc). There is much that could be done with escort AI resulting in more of a challenge to escape a counter-attack.

Imagine getting a new command and not knowing exactly what to expect from the boat. How deep will it go? (They all had the same theoretical crush depth but in actuality--they were all different). Boat A takes 3 seconds longer to dive than Boat B and Boat C just can't keep it's engines running (HOR Diesels).

I could go on for pages but I think I've made my point. Not that my point is any more valid than your's!!! It's merely my opinion (And everyone around here has one )!

Peto

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by Peto

I can understand your desire for this. It would be a nice feature to be able to check out the boat and crew. Still--I would vote against it. The reason is simple: Modelling everything in such detail would take a tremendous amount of effort and could easily detract from the meat & potatos of the sim.

I would rather see that effort put into further AI enhancement/more realism options/more dynamic modelling of the boats (each one would be a little unique--crush depth varies etc). There is much that could be done with escort AI resulting in more of a challenge to escape a counter-attack.

Imagine getting a new command and not knowing exactly what to expect from the boat. How deep will it go? (They all had the same theoretical crush depth but in actuality--they were all different). Boat A takes 3 seconds longer to dive than Boat B and Boat C just can't keep it's engines running (HOR Diesels).

I could go on for pages but I think I've made my point. Not that my point is any more valid than your's!!! It's merely my opinion (And everyone around here has one )!

Peto

Think I'd have to agree with you there Peto. A fully rendered 3D interior for your sub would be cool but it would simply be eye candy and notmuch more. I'd rather see the time and energy go on better external graphics, more and better ship models, better campaign, better AI, etc etc.

Basically I would place quite a few things in the 'To Do' list ahead of creating an entire submarine interior.

Besides when are you going to see all of it?

[Angus89]

My 2 cents is for a truly dynamic alternate history from where sh4 leaves off. What if Germany didnt lose in Russia. what if Russia stayed neutral or even axis. What if England was forced to go Vichy. What if u-boats did move into the Pacific with support? Not realistic in a 100% vain, but many possibilities for a truly dynamic campaign. Let me be an influence on history. Just a thought. Till then, Lurker is sending my s-boat on another mission to some deserted piece of ocean where I can destroy sampans till my gun barrel melts.

[raifg]

Question of point of view
I understand that modeling the interior would be a full time job, but if you consider that the main goal of the game is to simulate the life in a sub, it is a useful work.
It depend on your interest:
- a navy battle => the develoment team would have to pay attention at the exterior skin of the boat and the behaviour of ships in all the sea conditions...
- a simulation of life (like Sim's for instance), where your are the chief of the crew and not the captain (I mean You are passive in the battle, You only execute the oders of your captain, quicly and with efficiency) paying attention at the interior is a necessity...

I think the second point of view have to be expanded because I find that the managament of the crew in SH4 is too simple and has a small interaction with the rest of the game

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by raifg

Question of point of view
I understand that modeling the interior would be a full time job, but if you consider that the main goal of the game is to simulate the life in a sub, it is a useful work.
It depend on your interest:
- a navy battle => the develoment team would have to pay attention at the exterior skin of the boat and the behaviour of ships in all the sea conditions...
- a simulation of life (like Sim's for instance), where your are the chief of the crew and not the captain (I mean You are passive in the battle, You only execute the oders of your captain, quicly and with efficiency) paying attention at the interior is a necessity...

I think the second point of view have to be expanded because I find that the managament of the crew in SH4 is too simple and has a small interaction with the rest of the game

My point of view is the opposite.

Adding a more complex crew management system a la SH3 is a destraction from the game. SH4 is a naval combat simulation not just a maritime simulation like some the civilian ship simulators out there. IMO therefore, its about hunting down and destroying the enemy not fiddling about endlessly moving crew members from one compartement to the next because they feel tired etc.

I think SH4 got the balance just right. The more complex crew management is there if you want to mess about with it but if you don't you can leave the crew to do their thing and they don't stand an endless watch in the engine room until they pass out from fatigue. The rotating watch system has I think a very authentic feel to it.

The fact is that very complex resource management soon becomes a chore and starts to dominate rather than adding immersion. It can very easily become boring and is not really very realistic as you take the role of captain and in RL the skipper would have little to do with the day to day running of the crew and boat.

Thats another reason why a fully rendered hull interior is a little redundant. As the skipper you would probably alternate from your stateroom to the wardroom to the control room to the conning tower and bridge and back again (maybe the head once a day) , seeing little of the rest of the sub unless you were conducting an inspection or their was a problem somewhere in the boat. After an hour or so of play who's going to bother touring the sub on an inspection of the boat? I have a feeling that the novelty of a go anywhere interior would wear off pretty quickly.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool and I think that one or two areas of the boat could be modelled such as the captains quarters for instance. As I posted earlier I'd swap a fully modelled interior of the sub for twice the number of ships currently included and improvements to the AI, campaign etc.

PS Who wants to play as the Chief and who wants to play as the Skipper? I know what rank I would rather play as!

[Torplexed]

I've never understood the desire to see the entire interior of the sub modeled either. It would be interesting from a reference point of view, but I'd probably never visit them while on patrol. What would compell me to visit the pump room...or the manuvering room, or the ship's galley? Am I gonna pretend there is actual chow there? Are the crew's canned animation loops gonna be more interesting elsewhere in the ship?

I get the feeling that some people are more interested in some virtual shipboard social interaction world than in history-based submarine warfare. A game that has to make a profit can really only concentrate on doing one of those subjects well.

[DeepSix]

Not interested in having access to every compartment either - although a "ward room" with an interactive game of bridge or chess would sure be a nice way to get more out of playing at 1:1 time. Not exactly ShipSim '08 but might add something to the atmosphere but without the distraction or dead ends. That is, those who would not use it would also probably not be bothered by having it around, either. Somebody suggested this idea way back when SH4 was in the planning; I still like it.

[raifg]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

My point of view is the opposite.

Adding a more complex crew management system a la SH3 is a destraction from the game. SH4 is a naval combat simulation not just a maritime simulation like some the civilian ship simulators out there. IMO therefore, its about hunting down and destroying the enemy not fiddling about endlessly moving crew members from one compartement to the next because they feel tired etc.

I think SH4 got the balance just right. The more complex crew management is there if you want to mess about with it but if you don't you can leave the crew to do their thing and they don't stand an endless watch in the engine room until they pass out from fatigue. The rotating watch system has I think a very authentic feel to it.

The fact is that very complex resource management soon becomes a chore and starts to dominate rather than adding immersion. It can very easily become boring and is not really very realistic as you take the role of captain and in RL the skipper would have little to do with the day to day running of the crew and boat.

Thats another reason why a fully rendered hull interior is a little redundant. As the skipper you would probably alternate from your stateroom to the wardroom to the control room to the conning tower and bridge and back again (maybe the head once a day) , seeing little of the rest of the sub unless you were conducting an inspection or their was a problem somewhere in the boat. After an hour or so of play who's going to bother touring the sub on an inspection of the boat? I have a feeling that the novelty of a go anywhere interior would wear off pretty quickly.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool and I think that one or two areas of the boat could be modelled such as the captains quarters for instance. As I posted earlier I'd swap a fully modelled interior of the sub for twice the number of ships currently included and improvements to the AI, campaign etc.

PS Who wants to play as the Chief and who wants to play as the Skipper? I know what rank I would rather play as!

OK
I understand your point of view. The SH series are based on naval combat. So I understand easily than you don't want to have a simulation of crew or a stuff like that.
Maybe this kind of simulation could start a new game for another public, but I guess It could be very interesting, with situations where you can train your crew or part of this one.
And If Ubi or another one wants me ideas or my contribution to test this kind of game I am 200% open

On the other hand, I like the game of naval combat too. I think that SH4 is one of the best game on the market. The only criticism I make, is the management of the crew. When you are playing a campaign, the interaction of your management and your performance is too small. Understand me, I have taken a long time to choose the appropriate guy for each position in the sub; I have waited their promotion and their medals and after all I am not able to find a difference between the crew I got at the beginning of my campaign and now (all my guys are egal or higher than Chief Petty Officer ). Second thing, why a guy staying quitely (in the rapair team) in the sub obtain as much experience as another one who has sunk 10 planes. It's not fair don't you think ?

So in conclusion, my wish for the next opus of SH = a real interaction of the crew on the global performance of the sub

PS: it doesn't matter to play as Chief if you enjoy your game

[DeepSix]

Given a choice, I'd rather have greater control over how many engines I have for propulsion and how many for recharge, or the ability to steer with the screws, than to have more eye candy.

2 cents.

[Iron Budokan]

Originally Posted by Peto

I can understand your desire for this. It would be a nice feature to be able to check out the boat and crew. Still--I would vote against it. The reason is simple: Modelling everything in such detail would take a tremendous amount of effort and could easily detract from the meat & potatos of the sim.

I would rather see that effort put into further AI enhancement/more realism options/more dynamic modelling of the boats (each one would be a little unique--crush depth varies etc). There is much that could be done with escort AI resulting in more of a challenge to escape a counter-attack.

Imagine getting a new command and not knowing exactly what to expect from the boat. How deep will it go? (They all had the same theoretical crush depth but in actuality--they were all different). Boat A takes 3 seconds longer to dive than Boat B and Boat C just can't keep it's engines running (HOR Diesels).

I could go on for pages but I think I've made my point. Not that my point is any more valid than your's!!! It's merely my opinion (And everyone around here has one )!

Peto

I like the way you think....:hmm: