Assault Weapons

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

It is actually not designed that way, and that only happens at short range. The military didn't fully understand it till 1986 either, since it is not by design. Longer ranges, and it will only wound. Up close it kills, partially due to cavity and fragmentation. This fragmentation actually makes it safer to use indoors since the fragmenting round has little wall penetration. Where a .45 might go through a couple of your neighbors houses, a fragmenting 5.56, both 55 gr and 62 gr, seems to stop short quickly! So there is much less chance of hurting someone else not involved while in defense of ones self.

Of course if you are the news media, they will overexagerate the fact that it is a high power rifle so it must go through tanks or something (sarcasm).

-S

Thats true for the old 5.56 round and the old barrel rifling twist. The current rounds are heavyer and the rifling twist is different. And .45 is a really poor penetrator tbh. Anyway the 5.56 will go through several sheets of drywall while tumbling without disintegrating, but yes, it is generaly safer for indeoor use, though for indoor use special frangible amunition is advised.
Though im not 100% sure of the 5.56 design, havent done all that much research on it, just some casual browsing over the years.

The WosMan, yeah the media tends to exagerate things a lot, but this thread isnt really about fully automatic rifles, just rifles which look like their military use counterparts.

[The WosMan]

Yeah, I know. To me a gun is a gun. I own them, I collect them, and I enjoy using them against paper targets and the occasional fowl, groundhog, rabbit, deer, squirrel, etc. Speaking of .45, I recently purchased a nice Springfield 1911-A1 at Camp Perry back in September.

I've been looking at a Kimber 1911 for years but can't seem to pull the trigger on the purchase.

[The WosMan]

For me the price was right, I got help in lowering it by someone with influence who happened to be at the store talking to my father and I. The Springfield rep also threw in 4 magazines and those things are worth over $20 a piece.

[antikristuseke]

Been looking at geting Para Ordnance P14-45 myself for my 21st bday but that will have to wait because i havent served my time in the army yet and am not eligeble for a concealed carry licence before that. If things go acording to play ill be in the armed forces for 11 months starting the coming summer.

[The WosMan]

Congrats!

I have my CCW now but the local laws that should be superseded by the State make it hard for me to carry without being a criminal due to the schools and signs and legal distance and other anti-gun legal mumbo jumbo that requires you to stay "X" feet away from different structures while carrying. Quite an affront to my constitutional right.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I've been looking at a Kimber 1911 for years but can't seem to pull the trigger on the purchase.

I have a Kimber Pro Carry. Excellent gun. See if you can get an original Pro Carry. And no you can't buy it. I hate the new Pro Carry II's. They have that lawyer induced safety garbage on them - just something else to go wrong and something that does nothing for you.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Thats true for the old 5.56 round and the old barrel rifling twist. The current rounds are heavyer and the rifling twist is different.

Rifling twist on the 62 gr is 1:7. On the old 55 gr, 1:12. This is what made most manufacturers produce with a 1:9 twist to be able to fire both well. It has absolutely no effect on the fragmentation os the rough, since after it strikes an object, the same yawing will occur - the bullet is back end heavy and twist towards it's center of gravity - the back end. Apporximately at 90 degrees, it will fragment.

And .45 is a really poor penetrator tbh.

this is an old myth. I't heavy weight (230 gr) actually makes it one of the best penetrators out there, and it loves to go through objects without slowing down at all. Another myth is that the .357 is an excellent penetrator. As was proven time and time again, it is OK, not great.

Flesh is an excellent back stop for penetration analysis, and to give you an idea, both 5.56 mm rounds (62 and 55 gr) penetrate about equal through flesh - about 13 inches approx. For comparrison purposes and to keep apples to apples, a non expanding 230 FMJ .45 round will penetrate nearly 27 inches through flesh. Even an expanding round like .45 hydrashocks will still reliably hit 18 inches consistently. To compare to a .357 125 gr (JSP even), you get a penetration depth of only 14 inches, much much less than a .45.

-S

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Rifling twist on the 62 gr is 1:7. On the old 55 gr, 1:12. This is what made most manufacturers produce with a 1:9 twist to be able to fire both well. It has absolutely no effect on the fragmentation os the rough, since after it strikes an object, the same yawing will occur - the bullet is back end heavy and twist towards it's center of gravity - the back end. Apporximately at 90 degrees, it will fragment.

The speed at which a projectile spins does affect the projectiles likelyhood to tumble on contact and due to that allso the likelyhood of the bullet to fragment since the round fragments when going through mater sideways where the force is too great for it to retain structural integrity.

this is an old myth. I't heavy weight (230 gr) actually makes it one of the best penetrators out there, and it loves to go through objects without slowing down at all. Another myth is that the .357 is an excellent penetrator. As was proven time and time again, it is OK, not great.

Flesh is an excellent back stop for penetration analysis, and to give you an idea, both 5.56 mm rounds (62 and 55 gr) penetrate about equal through flesh - about 13 inches approx. For comparrison purposes and to keep apples to apples, a non expanding 230 FMJ .45 round will penetrate nearly 27 inches through flesh. Even an expanding round like .45 hydrashocks will still reliably hit 18 inches consistently. To compare to a .357 125 gr (JSP even), you get a penetration depth of only 14 inches, much much less than a .45.

-S

From my own experience i have found 115grain 9mm rounds to penetrate a bit better than 230grain .45 fmj. Cant really say anything on the .357 since i havent got any experience with it and it being 4am dont really feel like going through hours worth of material to come to any conlusion.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

The speed at which a projectile spins does affect the projectiles likelyhood to tumble on contact and due to that allso the likelyhood of the bullet to fragment since the round fragments when going through mater sideways where the force is too great for it to retain structural integrity.

According to the US military, it has no effect. Dr. Fackler reports that the bullet will seek a state of center of gravity forward, regardless of twist rate. This is the rear end of the bullet. Penetration between the two are shown as nearly identical. If you notice, the heavier 62 gr starts this transition earlier than the 55 gr, even though it is spinning faster:

From my own experience i have found 115grain 9mm rounds to penetrate a bit better than 230grain .45 fmj. Cant really say anything on the .357 since i havent got any experience with it and it being 4am dont really feel like going through hours worth of material to come to any conlusion.

115 gr by the way is the worst ammo weight of any 9mm round out there. Though fun for plinking - (put almost 700 rounds through MP5's and Glock 18's last time I was in AZ! The glock eats ammo faster though and is not very good for anything more than spraying!). So bad it is banned by the FBI for use in the line of duty. It has a pathetic penetration of only about 8 to 10 inches (An expanding round is even worse. The FBI require minimum 12 inches since you will never get a full on torso shot when defending yourself). This is why that guy who was shot 32 times with 115 gr, with about 10 of them that should have been fatal, failed to be dropped! He returned fire like nothing was wrong! the 33rd time he was hit, hit his juggler vein (A major lucky shot!) and that is the only thing that dropped him. 147 gr 9mm fixes this issue by the way and has proper penetration. I wouldn't bet my life on 115 gr. I personally don't like the 9mm round at all. I'd pick a .40 as a compromise between 9 mm's lack of ability but large ammo capacity, and the .45's overall capability. In my mind though, I am in serious trouble if I need more than the 9 chambered round in my .45, so it is fine for my purposes, and highly likely to end a fight with only 1 hit.

-S

[Chock]

Just to correct a minor omission on this topic, while it is true that the AK-74 has a comparable round to the NATO 5.56 (being 5.45), the AK-47 in it's original form is very much more deadly with its 7.62 round. These rounds (more by accident than design) tumble upon penetration and create a massive wound channel with horrendous shock damage, which can indeed be fatal simply from shock in many cases, let alone the trauma and blood loss.

However, since the purpose of an assault rifle is largely for fire and maneuever tactics, where you spray bullets up the street during house-to-house fighting purely with the intention of keeping your enemy's head down while your buddy moves up into grenade-throwing range to toss one in a bunker or something, they are hardly the ideal weapon for holding up a seven-eleven.

But even if that were not the case I would agree with you, it's not the gun that commits the crime, it's the person, and they could do that with a hammer, breadknife or whatever (and in the case of the AK, they'd be far less likely to miss with a breadknife), which is why the sweeping UK gun ban (largely a kneejerk reaction from the infamous Hungerford AK-47 shootings, from the land of preposterous kneejerk reactions), has done nothing to lower gun crime here, in fact it's gone up.

Many were quick to yell 'ban all guns' when that happened, but how many were asking, what can we do to prevent someone from considering such a course of action in the first place? All the ban did was hurt legitimate law-abiding gun enthusiasts, and as a result put a few more illegal guns into the community, which are now devoid of any sort of regulation or monitoring. What needs to be addressed (in every country) is the morality which would make anyone want to use a gun (or anything else for that matter) to commit a crime in the first place, and banning weapons does not address this issue one iota, it merely makes guns more desireable as a status symbol for criminals, since they are effectively, 'the forbidden fruit'.

I am personally an advocate of the idea that in the UK, children of age 14 or so should be taught to shoot responsibly as part of a curriculum, as I think it would serve to point out the very real difference between a gun on playstation and something which can cheerfully blow someone's head off with no possibility of pressing a reset button. If kids saw what gun can do to a few cinder blocks and targets, I suspect they might think twice about desiring one to settle an argument of some puberty-related incident, or anything in later life for that matter. but that's only half the story, what people also need is a moral compass, so that even if they had a gun, it would not enter their heads to commit a crime with it, or anything else for that matter.

Of course, guns are not everyone's cup of tea, and many will not see that you could be interested in them and still be a perfectly nice person who helps old ladies across the road and who wouldn't hurt a fly. I should know, behind me right now there are several field target rifles and pistols and numerous assualt rifles on the wall, such as an AK-47, AR-15 and a even a 1928 Thompson drum magazine sub machine gun (don't worry Mr UK Plod IP tracker dude, they are all either deactivated or perfectly legal, and yes I am in a recognised field target shooting club, so committing a crime with any of them would be like robbing a bank and using my own car for the getaway, and if you are waiting for me to hold up a petrol station with one, all I can say is, don't hold your breath).

Gun legislation is a childishly naive approach to what can of course be a problem, but it completely circumvents the real issue, sadly, it's always a vote-winner with those of a more left wing political bent, which is sort of ironic when you consider that AK-47's origins and it's iconic status with guerrillas. Tough on the causes of crime, rather than the (potential) tools of it should be the way to go.

Chock

[Ishmael]

Originally Posted by Chock

Just to correct a minor omission on this topic, while it is true that the AK-74 has a comparable round to the NATO 5.56 (being 5.45), the AK-47 in it's original form is very much more deadly with its 7.62 round. These rounds (more by accident than design) tumble upon penetration and create a massive wound channel with horrendous shock damage, which can indeed be fatal simply from shock in many cases, let alone the trauma and blood loss.

However, since the purpose of an assault rifle is largely for fire and maneuever tactics, where you spray bullets up the street during house-to-house fighting purely with the intention of keeping your enemy's head down while your buddy moves up into grenade-throwing range to toss one in a bunker or something, they are hardly the ideal weapon for holding up a seven-eleven.

But even if that were not the case I would agree with you, it's not the gun that commits the crime, it's the person, and they could do that with a hammer, breadknife or whatever (and in the case of the AK, they'd be far less likely to miss with a breadknife), which is why the sweeping UK gun ban (largely a kneejerk reaction from the infamous Hungerford AK-47 shootings, from the land of preposterous kneejerk reactions), has done nothing to lower gun crime here, in fact it's gone up.

Many were quick to yell 'ban all guns' when that happened, but how many were asking, what can we do to prevent someone from considering such a course of action in the first place? All the ban did was hurt legitimate law-abiding gun enthusiasts, and as a result put a few more illegal guns into the community, which are now devoid of any sort of regulation or monitoring. What needs to be addressed (in every country) is the morality which would make anyone want to use a gun (or anything else for that matter) to commit a crime in the first place, and banning weapons does not address this issue one iota, it merely makes guns more desireable as a status symbol for criminals, since they are effectively, 'the forbidden fruit'.

I am personally an advocate of the idea that in the UK, children of age 14 or so should be taught to shoot responsibly as part of a curriculum, as I think it would serve to point out the very real difference between a gun on playstation and something which can cheerfully blow someone's head off with no possibility of pressing a reset button. If kids saw what gun can do to a few cinder blocks and targets, I suspect they might think twice about desiring one to settle an argument of some puberty-related incident, or anything in later life for that matter. but that's only half the story, what people also need is a moral compass, so that even if they had a gun, it would not enter their heads to commit a crime with it, or anything else for that matter.

Of course, guns are not everyone's cup of tea, and many will not see that you could be interested in them and still be a perfectly nice person who helps old ladies across the road and who wouldn't hurt a fly. I should know, behind me right now there are several field target rifles and pistols and numerous assualt rifles on the wall, such as an AK-47, AR-15 and a even a 1928 Thompson drum magazine sub machine gun (don't worry Mr UK Plod IP tracker dude, they are all either deactivated or perfectly legal, and yes I am in a recognised field target shooting club, so committing a crime with any of them would be like robbing a bank and using my own car for the getaway, and if you are waiting for me to hold up a petrol station with one, all I can say is, don't hold your breath).

Gun legislation is a childishly naive approach to what can of course be a problem, but it completely circumvents the real issue, sadly, it's always a vote-winner with those of a more left wing political bent, which is sort of ironic when you consider that AK-47's origins and it's iconic status with guerrillas. Tough on the causes of crime, rather than the (potential) tools of it should be the way to go.

Chock

That's the one I bought after seeing the dents on the roofline of my San Antonio Mountain site nine feet up from where the Griz tried to get in. I bought a Rumanian AK-47 semi-auto 7.62 mm with the folding stock. The same one bin-laden uses in the file footage. I also saw it was voted the number one combat rifle in the world by the military channel. Oh, yeah. Forty rounds of 7.62X39mm ammo at the Walmart is like 12 bucks or less. I wish I could have found a Czech made one but was unsuccessful. The way I figure it, I have two 37-round clips. That's enough to spatter 10-15 rounds near the poor dumb animal to scare him away. If that doesn't work, I still have 50 or so more rounds to put right in the middle of him to slow him down long enough to reach the shelter, bar the door and call the rangers to come get this bear off my posterior.

Assault weapons bans don't make sense unless you're prepared to outlaw all semi-automatic actions and only allow lever or bolt action rifles.

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by Ishmael

Assault weapons bans don't make sense unless you're prepared to outlaw all semi-automatic actions and only allow lever or bolt action rifles.

That's waht happened here in Australia. We had tougher gun laws than america, but each state had different regulations. It all changed after 28th of April 1996.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...28Australia%29

Makes your preposed / attempted guns laws look tame!

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Chock

Just to correct a minor omission on this topic, while it is true that the AK-74 has a comparable round to the NATO 5.56 (being 5.45), the AK-47 in it's original form is very much more deadly with its 7.62 round. These rounds (more by accident than design) tumble upon penetration and create a massive wound channel with horrendous shock damage, which can indeed be fatal simply from shock in many cases, let alone the trauma and blood loss...

This is also a myth in more ways than one.

1. The AK-47 round in ballistics data enters and exits with nothing more than a small pistol round exit wound. It will tumble, producing mostly a temporary cavity. It will almost always enter and exit, never lodging in the body. It has much less damage than it's NATO 5.56 counterpart. It however is better able to penetrate cynderblock commonly found in Iraq due to it's higher weight than it's NATO counterpart.

Here is it's ballistic profile:




If you notice, the tissue disruption is minimal. Temporary cavity does not cause permanent damage, so it is an excellent wounder, instead of being a killer. This makes it an excellent close range battlefield weapon in that regard since you take both the wounded soldier and a medic off the battlefield instead of only killing and removing the soldier in question.

The AK-47 does have some major drawbacks however. It was built to be relible in any environment, so it's tolerances were purposely designed loose. This translates into poor accuracy at any range, and an act in frustration at any range beyond 100 meters. The bullet is also heavy, suffering from major bullet drop at 100 meters and beyond as well. The sights are too close together, further hampering aiming at range.

The good news - The bullet is so likely to wound vs. kill, if some crazy criminal gets one and shoots up everyone in his path, you are very likely to survive. Last statistics showed a survival rate against an AK-47 at nearly 78%. Change that to a shotgun loaded with buckshot and your survival rate drops below 30%. But you can't ban the shotgun because its used for hunting - go figure.

2. No one dies from shock like this - ever. THat is a fallacy created by Sanow for GUns Magazine. Him and his BS to sell magazines. Complete fallacy on knock down power (Laws of physics says that if a bullet could knock down an assailent, it would also knock down the shooter who sent that bullet flying) and shock and other BS. Even after his database was proven a fake and didn't really exist, people still read his crap and beleived it. I guess there are people in this world that will believe anything. The FBI and how they tore into Sanow's BS is entertaining to read though. A simple math teacher can prove this guy wrong.

With your heart removed from your body, you can live for up to 20 seconds. A mortally wounded person can continue to fight unhindered for an exceptional amount of time as well. Sanow played on Hollywoods idea that if you get shot, you go down, so everyone beleived him. This is not real life and it's all a fake however. SOme people will stop at the idea that they have been shot according Fackler, since that is how they perceive in their minds that they should act, but this does not stop the determined assailent ever. It is not shock they are experiencing, it is their own mind telling them they should react this way because they've seen it in so many movies.

Bascially - don't believe one word that Sanow says - more cops have been killed over his data than one could count. His recommendation of 115 gr 9mm for example - a pathetic round that can't even kill some people when cops are trying to save their own life.

If you want to read up on how this BS is a fake, let me know.

-S

[Chock]

I think you might have misunderstood what I was referring to here, and you'll certainly get an argument from anyone in the medical profession if you suggest that 'no one dies from shock like this -ever'. Shock is a recognised medical condition (not to be confused with the mental condition of shock, or the impact power of a bullet hit). Medical shock most certainly can, and indeed is, fatal if not treated.

Typically, it proceeds like this: The blood flow is disrupted, leading to a lack of oxygen and nutrients getting to vital organs, and this leads to localised cell damage as metabollic acidosis takes place from cellular 'leakage'. When this happens the body tries to compensate, and this kicks in things such as hyperventilating, with the body trying to get rid of excessive CO2 levels, so adrenaline is released and the heart rate increases to allow this to circulate to vital organs (which is why a shock victim will often have skin which feels cold and clammy), in a few cases this can bring on a heart attack, but what is more likely, is that the overworked systems of the body will begin to fail and this can (and does) lead to very serious damage, such as permanent irreversible damage at a cellular level, and that includes brain damage. And you can get all this from things much less severe than a bullet wound.

If you think shock cannot kill, then you'd better inform every medical facility around the world, as it will be news to them.

Chock