[TEC] Dept Charges?

Hawk_345 · 09-29-07, 09:41 AM

This is an idea from the general froum.

Is it posible to mod the DD'S and their load out of DC's to a realistic level or realatively realistic level since we sink more tons then most skipers in RL ever did and can we make their "guessing" depts, a little bit more random, because right now they more or less know your exact dept all the time, not very realistic.

If it is possible, maybe a possible project for a moder to do in his/her spare time.

ReallyDedPoet · 09-29-07, 10:01 AM

This thread is somewhat related: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=depth+charges

RDP

3Jane · 09-29-07, 10:05 AM

Compound interest on the explosives.

Hawk_345 · 09-29-07, 10:10 AM

alright, thanks, that thread really does explain most of whats going on.

tater · 09-29-07, 12:44 PM

I'm on it

tater

tater · 09-29-07, 01:19 PM

BTW, regarding the IJN DC loads carried, making them realistic would REDUCE the effectiveness of IJN ASW making players able to sink even more tonnage than RL.

That's really the gameplay balance.

I think the ultimate goal for AI/ASW tweaks is to have the ASW assets attack you more, but kill you less. To the extent their attacks are persistant enough to let the convoy/TF get away, they do their job and rteduce tonnage sunk to more realistic levels.

tater

mrbeast · 09-29-07, 03:04 PM

From all the accounts I've read the japanese dropped a lot of DCs. Sometimes dropping them at random to try and scare off lurking subs.

Might be interesting if that could be written into the game somehow, have green ASW crews use this rather panicky tactic while more experianced crews are a lot cooler and use the stock tactics.

tater · 09-29-07, 03:14 PM

That's more than we can mod I imagine. Early war, though, they would have to team up to drop a lot. The 36 DCs carried by many IJN DDs was the count AFTER they had 4 throwers added. Apparently early in the war they carried far fewer than 36 DCs. The early war Kaibokans carried only 12 DCs. The minesweeper in game? On non-escort duty it carried TWO DCs. Not 2 racks, 2 depth charges. I think from a gameplay standpoint I'd not have any ship carry fewer than maybe 6 DCs.

OTOH, it might be interesting to see the effect of a really crappy crew on a really capable ship.

Perhaps I should try Bungo Pete with his skill set to AI=0. I'd be looking for lots of attacks, but no where near me

If it worked, we could make some ersatz escorts, give them GREAT hydrophones, but awful crews. They might detect you and drop a mile away...

tater

FAdmiral · 09-29-07, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

If it worked, we could make some ersatz escorts, give them GREAT hydrophones, but awful crews. They might detect you and drop a mile away...

tater

OR they might not detect you at all and drop the ashcan right down your neck....

JIM

tater · 09-29-07, 04:14 PM

Hehe, true. You might get hit by a meteor running on the surface, as well

tater

Hawk_345 · 09-29-07, 05:05 PM

well i understand we cant have realistic levels of DCs ingame because of the player vs AI factor, but we can definatly lower them to under 100 right? because now its seems like they have 100's.

Im glad to see you are working on this tater.

tater · 09-29-07, 05:17 PM

They DO have hundreds in some cases. They typical DD in SH4 has at least 80 DCs when it should be 36 or so later in the war, and far fewer early on.

There is a problem, however. To realistically limit them, I need to make loads of changes because I need to install a few different rack types, etc. The escorts need to be able to evolve more capability over time as they did in RL. Many DDs that saw escort duty more frequently got DC thrower upgrades. For many of them I need to add nodes to allow this (the typical number was 4 throwers). I have tests, I just need to dial it in some more.

When I get it figured out, I will likely make a couple different versions for people. I'd think less in terms of easy vs hard, and more in terms of the flavor of the damage. I was thinking that you could have a large radius like the stock game (maybe 30m instead of 40m), but a smaller explosive range of HP damage. The goal would be to tune it more towards system damage than HP damage (as redwine has been working on). The other variant would be just reducing the radius as RFB and TM have done. All with fewer DCs stored aboard.

swdw · 09-29-07, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

There is a problem, however. To realistically limit them, I need to make loads of changes because I need to install a few different rack types, etc. The escorts need to be able to evolve more capability over time as they did in RL. Many DDs that saw escort duty more frequently got DC thrower upgrades. For many of them I need to add nodes to allow this (the typical number was 4 throwers). I have tests, I just need to dial it in some more.

This is quite an undertaking. How much access do you have to tweaking the AI? I can see additional issues with more experienced escort crews being better wtih the sonar and placing the DC's, being better at maneuvering their escort, gaining understanding of US sub tactics making them more effective, etc.

As you pointed out theres a LOT more to this than people may think and maybe making the DC's depth accurate was a method of play balancing the game because the AI might not be sophisticated enough to handle all the variables.

Thank you for what you are already doing and the other mods you've developed. Impressive work is an understatement This is a great sim community and I've only been lurking for a few days and posting for one, but appreciate the people here already.

tater · 09-29-07, 10:35 PM

The AI itself is a black box. What we can control are the sensors, and a few settings like how long the AI will persist in prosecuting an attack, etc. The only other control is by picking AI skill levels (0 through 4). Testing the interaction between sensor settings and AI skill levels is... time intensive. On top of that, somewhat subjective.

tater

09-29-07, 09:41 AM	#1
Hawk_345 Medic Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 160 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	[TEC] Dept Charges? This is an idea from the general froum. Is it posible to mod the DD'S and their load out of DC's to a realistic level or realatively realistic level since we sink more tons then most skipers in RL ever did and can we make their "guessing" depts, a little bit more random, because right now they more or less know your exact dept all the time, not very realistic. If it is possible, maybe a possible project for a moder to do in his/her spare time. __________________

09-29-07, 10:01 AM	#2
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,888 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	This thread is somewhat related: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=depth+charges RDP __________________ Back in the Day

09-29-07, 10:05 AM	#3
3Jane Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: York. Northern England. Posts: 1,004 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Compound interest on the explosives. __________________ Fate opposes me in vitality and morality, forced ever onward, burdened, always in shackles. So this very moment, without tarrying, pluck the quivering strings. Because fate punishes the one who plays, all lament with me. (http://hosted.filefront.com/KatherineRowan)

09-29-07, 10:10 AM	#4
Hawk_345 Medic Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 160 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	alright, thanks, that thread really does explain most of whats going on. __________________

09-29-07, 03:04 PM	#7
mrbeast Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bolton, UK Posts: 1,236 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	From all the accounts I've read the japanese dropped a lot of DCs. Sometimes dropping them at random to try and scare off lurking subs. Might be interesting if that could be written into the game somehow, have green ASW crews use this rather panicky tactic while more experianced crews are a lot cooler and use the stock tactics. __________________

09-29-07, 12:44 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I'm on it tater

09-29-07, 01:19 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	BTW, regarding the IJN DC loads carried, making them realistic would REDUCE the effectiveness of IJN ASW making players able to sink even more tonnage than RL. That's really the gameplay balance. I think the ultimate goal for AI/ASW tweaks is to have the ASW assets attack you more, but kill you less. To the extent their attacks are persistant enough to let the convoy/TF get away, they do their job and rteduce tonnage sunk to more realistic levels. tater

09-29-07, 03:14 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	That's more than we can mod I imagine. Early war, though, they would have to team up to drop a lot. The 36 DCs carried by many IJN DDs was the count AFTER they had 4 throwers added. Apparently early in the war they carried far fewer than 36 DCs. The early war Kaibokans carried only 12 DCs. The minesweeper in game? On non-escort duty it carried TWO DCs. Not 2 racks, 2 depth charges. I think from a gameplay standpoint I'd not have any ship carry fewer than maybe 6 DCs. OTOH, it might be interesting to see the effect of a really crappy crew on a really capable ship. Perhaps I should try Bungo Pete with his skill set to AI=0. I'd be looking for lots of attacks, but no where near me If it worked, we could make some ersatz escorts, give them GREAT hydrophones, but awful crews. They might detect you and drop a mile away... tater

09-29-07, 04:14 PM	#10
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Hehe, true. You might get hit by a meteor running on the surface, as well tater

09-29-07, 05:05 PM	#11
Hawk_345 Medic Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 160 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	well i understand we cant have realistic levels of DCs ingame because of the player vs AI factor, but we can definatly lower them to under 100 right? because now its seems like they have 100's. Im glad to see you are working on this tater. __________________

09-29-07, 05:17 PM	#12
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	They DO have hundreds in some cases. They typical DD in SH4 has at least 80 DCs when it should be 36 or so later in the war, and far fewer early on. There is a problem, however. To realistically limit them, I need to make loads of changes because I need to install a few different rack types, etc. The escorts need to be able to evolve more capability over time as they did in RL. Many DDs that saw escort duty more frequently got DC thrower upgrades. For many of them I need to add nodes to allow this (the typical number was 4 throwers). I have tests, I just need to dial it in some more. When I get it figured out, I will likely make a couple different versions for people. I'd think less in terms of easy vs hard, and more in terms of the flavor of the damage. I was thinking that you could have a large radius like the stock game (maybe 30m instead of 40m), but a smaller explosive range of HP damage. The goal would be to tune it more towards system damage than HP damage (as redwine has been working on). The other variant would be just reducing the radius as RFB and TM have done. All with fewer DCs stored aboard.

09-29-07, 10:35 PM	#14
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The AI itself is a black box. What we can control are the sensors, and a few settings like how long the AI will persist in prosecuting an attack, etc. The only other control is by picking AI skill levels (0 through 4). Testing the interaction between sensor settings and AI skill levels is... time intensive. On top of that, somewhat subjective. tater