Kerry rally

[sunvalleyslim]

And secondly, is it unlawful to openly resist arrest by the police if you have not done anything wrong? This question in a police state of course would be meaningless.[/quote]
From above:

When you resist what the cop is trying to do you have opened yourself up to use of force.

[/quote]

bradclark said it right when you resist, you open yourself to a use of force. So lets start with the ecalation of force.
1st reason and verbalization....."Sir will you step outside"
2nd firm grip control..........starts failing arms
3rd control hold.......Bar arm control not allowed.....subj resists and ofcr unable to aplly hold
4th pepper spray.......inside auditorium with people, someone besides the supect is going to get the effects of the spray...might clear out the whole place
5th Nightstick/PR24.....not going to look good on the camera....Remember Rodney King....definitely going to be viewed as excessive force
5th Tazer.......probably most appropriate inside....doesn't look bad, easy to subdue resisting suspect.

Suspect was told to stop resisiting numerous times and warned that he would be tazed......He says no don't taze me, but he never stops failing around.......

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by sunvalleyslim

And secondly, is it unlawful to openly resist arrest by the police if you have not done anything wrong? This question in a police state of course would be meaningless.

From above:

When you resist what the cop is trying to do you have opened yourself up to use of force.

[/quote]

bradclark said it right when you resist, you open yourself to a use of force. So lets start with the ecalation of force.
1st reason and verbalization....."Sir will you step outside"
2nd firm grip control..........starts failing arms
3rd control hold.......Bar arm control not allowed.....subj resists and ofcr unable to aplly hold
4th pepper spray.......inside auditorium with people, someone besides the supect is going to get the effects of the spray...might clear out the whole place
5th Nightstick/PR24.....not going to look good on the camera....Remember Rodney King....definitely going to be viewed as excessive force
5th Tazer.......probably most appropriate inside....doesn't look bad, easy to subdue resisting suspect.

Suspect was told to stop resisiting numerous times and warned that he would be tazed......He says no don't taze me, but he never stops failing around.......[/quote]

Ok look, for the record I think this students behaviour is out of line BUT.
He is a student who like many students is passionate about his beliefs, believes he and he alone can solve all the worlds problems, that anybody over 30 doesn't have a clue what they are talking about etc, etc. In short he is still wet behind the ears but believes he knows it all - like many students.

It was a political debate which by its very nature in question time could become emotionally charged. Kerry's a big boy, a seasoned politician, leave it to him to verbally spar with this kid.

The interesting thing is this. In the police reports everything this kid said is meticously recalled and noted by the police except for the one question this kid kept shouting out, and that is: "Tell me what I have done wrong?".
Why have over 5 individual policeman in their written reports detailed everything else this kid said from "blow jobs" to "don't kill me" etc failed to mention this question he repeatedly shouted out? Could it be that they themselves didn't know the answer and would rather the question not be asked. Because it looks to me as if the police did not react to this student because THEY saw him do something wrong but rather they were told to react to him by a third party who didn't like the aggressive and or politically motivated question/statement this kid was making.

Looking at this incident however, I'm asking myself the question how I would react to police forcefully interfering with me if I was convinced I had not done something wrong. I'm thinking of an incident a few years back where police stormed a residential house in dead of night only to discover that they had the wrong street number. I may be wrong but I think someone in that house was even killed in the mayem that followed when the residents understandably resisted this assualt on their property.

How many times haven't we seen police back off, not use force and try and reason with whoever it is they wish to apprehend. Why couldn't that have been done in this incident. I certainly do not support this kid in his political views. If I lived in the States I would be Republican to the core, but, damit, this was a political debate, a kid full of hot air wanting to take on a veteran poltician with even more hot air. It could have been fun.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

It could have been fun.

"An officer, however, said in the police report that Meyer's "demeanor completely changed once the cameras were not in sight" and that he was "laughing" and "lighthearted" on the way to jail."
- Tasered Student Has History Of Practical Jokes

[Von Tonner]

Thanks for the link Avon.
If ever I doubt my reasoning as to why I think Kerry is a wimp I will refer back to his statement below.

"Whatever happened, the police had a reason, had made their decision that there was something they needed to do. Then it's a law enforcement issue, not mine," he (Kerry) told The Associated Press in Washington.

[Von Tonner]

Found this on defence to resisting arrest.

Defense to resisting arrest

A common defense to resisting arrest is that the officer acted with excessive force. While an arrestee is expected to comply with an officer's reasonable actions to affect an arrest, the arrestee is allowed to defend himself from unreasonable, excessive force used by the officer.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Thanks for the link Avon.
If ever I doubt my reasoning as to why I think Kerry is a wimp I will refer back to his statement below.

"Whatever happened, the police had a reason, had made their decision that there was something they needed to do. Then it's a law enforcement issue, not mine," he (Kerry) told The Associated Press in Washington.

What's really funny is that I have no liking of Kerry as a reliable politician yet in this case I believe he behaved very appropriately.

There is nothing "wimpy" about respecting law enforcement and not hindering them or insulting them for doing their job. Just the opposite of the arrested buffoon here.

[Skybird]

What Tonner said. I do not like the idea that whatever the police considers "appropriate" should and must be obeyed by civilians at all cost. This kind of uncritical law and order mentality reminds me of the german word "Kadavergehorsam", which originally referred to the expected blind obedience of soldiers and military contexts, but also means exactly this: blind obedience in all contexts. there is no room for that in the very idea of "democracy". Tonner mentioned "excessive force", and that'S what it is about. The incident, or others like this, must be examined, reviewed, and become the basis for correcting proecudres used by the police, so that it does not repeat. That way, the probability that a situation of using excessive force appears again, gets reduced, and by that the valdiity of the demand to comply with police demands gets raised. but the more often police demands, in the widest sense, are vunerable to criticism concerning their appropriateness, the more it is reasomnable, legal, and justified to resist them. In the end the goals does not justify all means - else you would need to accept that the man eventually would be shot dead with three officers sitting on him and holding his arms and legs down. And finally, the tazer was not used as a weapon in self defense, but as a disciplinary measure - that's how I see it. And that is totally unacceptable. It is the court's and judge's job to decide on disciplinary measures in the form of penalties, not the police's.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What's really funny is that I have no liking of Kerry as a reliable politician yet in this case I believe he behaved very appropriately.

There is nothing "wimpy" about respecting law enforcement and not hindering them or insulting them for doing their job. Just the opposite of the arrested buffoon here.

In "wimpy" I am referring to Kerry's statement where he doesn't have the balls to question, condone, denounce, give insight, comment on, justify - hell anything man other than political speak lest he offend someone.
Be man enough to say "The kid deserved what he got..." or "It is a pity they didn't allow me to answer him...." or "I think it was a bit high handed..." anything that gives some indication there is a brain in his head other than a gallup poll. "Whatever happened the police had a reason..." he says. How bloody profound! On a simple incident that happened right in front of him and he was party too that is all he can come up with? And he considers himself qualified to run the most powerful country in the world and be the keeper to the free world!? God help all of us.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

"An officer, however, said in the police report that Meyer's "demeanor completely changed once the cameras were not in sight" and that he was "laughing" and "lighthearted" on the way to jail."
- Tasered Student Has History Of Practical Jokes

And one police officer in his report writes: Witness:
Once he was outside of the auditorium he became very upset at the thought of taking the elevator. As a result of this he was walked down the stairs to the lobby of the University Auditorium. As he was walking down the stairs he stated, "People know I am here. You can't kill me."



While his colleague in his report on the same incident writes:
As the man was escorted down stairs with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down stairs he started screaming and yelling again. Some of the comments that the man made were
"You can't kill me.", "They are giving me to the government." and "They are going to kill me."



I must admit I have a problem with a police officer trying to be an officer of the peace and part time judge as well in attempting to link the presence of cameras with this kids action as in cause and effect: "but once the cameras made their way down.....". Now he may be right, but that is not his job. Where his colleague on the other hand keeps his own personal opinions out of his statement.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

And one police officer in his report writes: Witness:
Once he was outside of the auditorium he became very upset at the thought of taking the elevator. As a result of this he was walked down the stairs to the lobby of the University Auditorium. As he was walking down the stairs he stated, "People know I am here. You can't kill me."



While his colleague in his report on the same incident writes:
As the man was escorted down stairs with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down stairs he started screaming and yelling again. Some of the comments that the man made were
"You can't kill me.", "They are giving me to the government." and "They are going to kill me."



I must admit I have a problem with a police officer trying to be an officer of the peace and part time judge as well in attempting to link the presence of cameras with this kids action as in cause and effect: "but once the cameras made their way down.....". Now he may be right, but that is not his job. Where his colleague on the other hand keeps his own personal opinions out of his statement.

I am totally confused. The video's of him downstairs show him shouting "they are going to kill me" or similar. So?

And one of the things usually documented in arrest reports is the suspect's behavior. If that's the way the police saw it, it may have been an obvious difference between night and day. This is not being a "part time judge". This is being a witness, submitting testimony of the event.

Try lowering your dramatism dial by 3 or 4 notches.

In "wimpy" I am referring to Kerry's statement where he doesn't have the balls to question, condone, denounce, give insight, comment on, justify - hell anything man other than political speak lest he offend someone.

Here you are raving about police being judgemental, when you want Kerry to be judgemental and you're not doing to bad yourself for one who wasn't there and can only see what the rest of us can on these videos, which still appear to be inconclusive on their own.

Judgemental indeed.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I do not like the idea that whatever the police considers "appropriate" should and must be obeyed by civilians at all cost.

Who said "at all costs"? Please point the post out to us.

[Skybird]

It was repeatedly indicated in this thread that if the police orders you to comply, no matter for what, no matter in what way, you have no right to question that or to resist, but should must follow that, else it is fully justified to brake your resitance by the means necessary. Which in this case was achieved by what I still see as excessive force, and totally unnecessary use of a tazer.

I just relativised that understanding of blind obedience in my last post. And since we start to talk in circles, i leave it to that here.

[sunvalleyslim]

Skybird,
Please tell me if you as the police officer, what would you have down to deescalate the situation once he began throwing his arms around and yelling.......and why you consider the tazer as excessive force, and what force you would have used to take him into custody.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

The interesting thing is this. In the police reports everything this kid said is meticously recalled and noted by the police except for the one question this kid kept shouting out, and that is: "Tell me what I have done wrong?".
Why have over 5 individual policeman in their written reports detailed everything else this kid said from "blow jobs" to "don't kill me" etc failed to mention this question he repeatedly shouted out? Could it be that they themselves didn't know the answer and would rather the question not be asked. Because it looks to me as if the police did not react to this student because THEY saw him do something wrong but rather they were told to react to him by a third party who didn't like the aggressive and or politically motivated question/statement this kid was making.

It is looking like this is more and more the case.

"University police said in a news release that officers had been summoned by the forum's sponsors to escort Meyer from the building, though organizers disputed that and said his microphone was cut off after he used a sexually explicit term."

[sunvalleyslim]

Avon Lady, The Adventures of Taser Boy is right on the mark. Mr. Dunphy puts it in better words than myself. The right actions were done for the right reasons. If you can't figure that out, then I know why you're not a police officer. And you know absolutely nothing about how to do police work. Having been in the position of those officers myself many times, it always looks easier when standing back observing. You only understand when you're the officer rolling on the ground, and everyone wants you to handle the "problem". Then they stand back and criticise about the way you went about it.
I have problems with the way this started and don't know who decided to grab this individual. I will agree with you that this didn't seem necessary. Verbalization should have started first. BUT after that all responsibility for everythingt rests on Mr. Tazer Boy.

[LtCmdrRat]

Guys, According NJ Law police officer has a right to arrest a person who looks at police officer without" proper respect..."