F1 Spy Row

STEED · 09-15-07, 10:21 AM

What do you think of this F1 spying row and the outcome from Thursday hearing?

Skybird · 09-15-07, 10:43 AM

McLaren is guilty, cause it is responsible for the behavior of it's employees. Nobody denies anymore that they were in possession of 700+ pages of secret technical data from Ferrari, Ron Dennis denied only that they used this data - but what a ridiculous defense it that? Also, in emails his pilots explicitly referred to specific details from this data set, so the claim McLaren did not use it sounds even more absurd.

I agree on the penalty of loosing all constructur points in the running season, sporting spirit demands it. and the event we talk about is nothing else but industrial espionage - but if the penalty fee of 100 million for that is justified, can be argued. Many say it is too much money. Since I have no experience on the usual sums the F1 circus is run by, I do form no opinion on the financial penalty. Maybe they want to set an example, to prevent this single virus turning into a running epidemia, like doping in bike sports.

I want to say that I do not see that this result comes from the dominance of Ferrari inside the F1 structure. McLaren played foul, and were unable to hide it. The penalty is the consistent result.

melnibonian · 09-15-07, 10:44 AM

McLaren got exactly what they deserve in my opinion. Too bad they did not punish the drivers as well.

STEED · 09-15-07, 10:58 AM

Stirling Moss and Murry Walker said why were the drivers also not punished as the fine seem to be some what a strange one, McLaren came very close to being thrown out of the rest of the 2007 season and banned from the 2008.

I have heard from others who feel Alonso and the test driver (Name slips me for the moment) should have been punished as well, true to say we have only seen part of the story and we could see more to come. It will be interesting on appeal if the F.I.A hold up the fine against McLaren.

Chock · 09-15-07, 11:30 AM

Fine them, don't fine them, doesn't really interest me anymore. I think F1 became very boring when Schumacher stopped racing, and the competition is now one between a lot of second-rate drivers who were simply not of the same calibre as him, either in skill or attitude.

As a consequence, the FIA have to keep moving the goalposts to try and make things interesting, and that's probably got a lot to do with this incident, which is part of what drove MS to leave anyway. Well, that and the fact that it means he doesn't have to talk to that moron James Allen anymore - a man who could comfortably write everything he knows about racing on the back of a matchbox in big capital letters.

Chock

Dowly · 09-15-07, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock

I think F1 became very boring when Schumacher stopped racing, and the competition is now one between a lot of second-rate drivers who were simply not of the same calibre as him, either in skill or attitude.

How can watching someone win race after race be more interesting that how it is now? :hmm:

Tchocky · 09-15-07, 11:35 AM

Ha, wow.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...169685,00.html

Chock · 09-15-07, 11:43 AM

Quote:

How can watching someone win race after race be more interesting that how it is now?

Here's how: The onus was on the other drivers to improve, not to drive someone with consumate skill out of the sport so that all the second raters would be in with a shout at winning. So the question should be, who would want to put up with watching a bunch of losers that were not up to his skill level squabbling for a hollow victory, when it is apparent that they were not capable of pushing the envelope to his extent?

Chock

Tchocky · 09-15-07, 11:48 AM

Schumacher is the only sportsman ever to have been criticised for being *too* good.

That I've seen, anyway.

Skybird · 09-15-07, 12:23 PM

I must say the debut season of Hamilton impresses me. It is a very promising start. To say he is the new Schumacher is too early. But if he races as successful next year as he did this year, it would be a strong hint that maybe he is the one who has what it takes to compete with Schumi-the-Giant. I currently can't see any other driver promising that potential. Hamilton is the hottest iron there currently is. If I were Ferrari, I would try all possible to get him. Unfortunately, he has a love for silver colour since his childhood.

Sldghammer · 09-15-07, 02:41 PM

Schumacher the sportsman was sporting enough to try and win the WDC by running JV off the track (failed) and sporting enough to win the WDC by running DH off the track (succeeded).

Back on the topic, Mclaren deserved the punishment. However, a huge can of worms may have been opened. Both Toyota and Renault have been caught red-handed doing the same thing.

So what's going to happen to them?

Finally, it's all about money. BE and Mad Max know F1 is boring as hell. Very little to no passing. MS and Ferrari almost killed the sport with their domination. If they had kicked out Alonso and Hamilton, fans (other than the tifosi) would have left in droves.

Kapitan_Phillips · 09-15-07, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock

I think F1 became very boring when Schumacher stopped racing, and the competition is now one between a lot of second-rate drivers who were simply not of the same calibre as him, either in skill or attitude.

How can watching someone win race after race be more interesting that how it is now? :hmm:

Fair point.

Skybird · 09-15-07, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sldghammer

Schumacher the sportsman was sporting enough to try and win the WDC by running JV off the track (failed) and sporting enough to win the WDC by running DH off the track (succeeded).

While Hill and Villeneuve were saints, sure - the one not having the skills to overtake in a regular manner, the other not being in control of his hot temper. I do not know how often Hill had shot Schumi off the track. Three times? Four? Or was it even five times? There was that one season when allmost all drivers were just chuckling about Hill's driving skills.

As the saying goes: the wish often is bigger than the skill.

Schumi was no saint, and I even did not like him too much, and at least at two opportunities he used to play dirty tricks - like others also did, and still do (Alonso this year for example). But Schumi was by far not as worse as some others. He also made a longterm investement into one team, forming it to enable him to win the championship(s). That is also part of the winner's longterm perspective. To criticise him for having done so just is silly. Winners recognize the need to get a good racket, and maintain it properly.

Penelope_Grey · 09-15-07, 03:30 PM

For what its worth my thoughts are, love Schumacher or hate him, the man was a winner, and while he did use dirty tricks, all the other greats have too. And I do feel he was hated a lot for the fact he was the best.

I know F1 because my father and brother discuss it at length.

Also, for as far as Lewis Hamilton goes, he is a flash in the pan. Much like Button, he will barely amount to a second rater. He is arrogant too, and given this is only his first year that arrogance is unfounded. Win a couple of World Titles then come back and talk like you know it all.

Also, it was he that played a dirty trick on Alonso first as I understand it... Hamilton went out again thus stopping Alonso going out, so Alonso held him up. Serve McLarens golden boy right.

Skybird · 09-15-07, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

he is a flash in the pan.

Sorry, i don't know that. What does that phrase mean? From the context I understand it is not meant as a compliment.

09-15-07, 10:21 AM	#1
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	F1 Spy Row What do you think of this F1 spying row and the outcome from Thursday hearing? __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

09-15-07, 10:43 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,778 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	McLaren is guilty, cause it is responsible for the behavior of it's employees. Nobody denies anymore that they were in possession of 700+ pages of secret technical data from Ferrari, Ron Dennis denied only that they used this data - but what a ridiculous defense it that? Also, in emails his pilots explicitly referred to specific details from this data set, so the claim McLaren did not use it sounds even more absurd. I agree on the penalty of loosing all constructur points in the running season, sporting spirit demands it. and the event we talk about is nothing else but industrial espionage - but if the penalty fee of 100 million for that is justified, can be argued. Many say it is too much money. Since I have no experience on the usual sums the F1 circus is run by, I do form no opinion on the financial penalty. Maybe they want to set an example, to prevent this single virus turning into a running epidemia, like doping in bike sports. I want to say that I do not see that this result comes from the dominance of Ferrari inside the F1 structure. McLaren played foul, and were unable to hide it. The penalty is the consistent result. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-15-07, 10:44 AM	#3
melnibonian Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Reading UK Posts: 3,473 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	McLaren got exactly what they deserve in my opinion. Too bad they did not punish the drivers as well. __________________ http://www.thegreywolves.com/ http://wolvesatwar.com/ Download GWX and other goodies: http://hosted.filefront.com/melnibonian

09-15-07, 10:58 AM	#4
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Stirling Moss and Murry Walker said why were the drivers also not punished as the fine seem to be some what a strange one, McLaren came very close to being thrown out of the rest of the 2007 season and banned from the 2008. I have heard from others who feel Alonso and the test driver (Name slips me for the moment) should have been punished as well, true to say we have only seen part of the story and we could see more to come. It will be interesting on appeal if the F.I.A hold up the fine against McLaren. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

09-15-07, 11:30 AM	#5
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Fine them, don't fine them, doesn't really interest me anymore. I think F1 became very boring when Schumacher stopped racing, and the competition is now one between a lot of second-rate drivers who were simply not of the same calibre as him, either in skill or attitude. As a consequence, the FIA have to keep moving the goalposts to try and make things interesting, and that's probably got a lot to do with this incident, which is part of what drove MS to leave anyway. Well, that and the fact that it means he doesn't have to talk to that moron James Allen anymore - a man who could comfortably write everything he knows about racing on the back of a matchbox in big capital letters. Chock __________________

09-15-07, 11:35 AM	#7
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Ha, wow. http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...169685,00.html __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

09-15-07, 11:48 AM	#9
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Schumacher is the only sportsman ever to have been criticised for being too good. That I've seen, anyway. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

09-15-07, 12:23 PM	#10
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,778 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I must say the debut season of Hamilton impresses me. It is a very promising start. To say he is the new Schumacher is too early. But if he races as successful next year as he did this year, it would be a strong hint that maybe he is the one who has what it takes to compete with Schumi-the-Giant. I currently can't see any other driver promising that potential. Hamilton is the hottest iron there currently is. If I were Ferrari, I would try all possible to get him. Unfortunately, he has a love for silver colour since his childhood. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-15-07, 02:41 PM	#11
Sldghammer Watch Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 18 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Schumacher the sportsman was sporting enough to try and win the WDC by running JV off the track (failed) and sporting enough to win the WDC by running DH off the track (succeeded). Back on the topic, Mclaren deserved the punishment. However, a huge can of worms may have been opened. Both Toyota and Renault have been caught red-handed doing the same thing. So what's going to happen to them? Finally, it's all about money. BE and Mad Max know F1 is boring as hell. Very little to no passing. MS and Ferrari almost killed the sport with their domination. If they had kicked out Alonso and Hamilton, fans (other than the tifosi) would have left in droves.

09-15-07, 03:30 PM	#14
Penelope_Grey Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,893 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	For what its worth my thoughts are, love Schumacher or hate him, the man was a winner, and while he did use dirty tricks, all the other greats have too. And I do feel he was hated a lot for the fact he was the best. I know F1 because my father and brother discuss it at length. Also, for as far as Lewis Hamilton goes, he is a flash in the pan. Much like Button, he will barely amount to a second rater. He is arrogant too, and given this is only his first year that arrogance is unfounded. Win a couple of World Titles then come back and talk like you know it all. Also, it was he that played a dirty trick on Alonso first as I understand it... Hamilton went out again thus stopping Alonso going out, so Alonso held him up. Serve McLarens golden boy right. __________________ I SURVIVED THE FIRST EVER SUBSIM WEREWOLF HUNT - and... I actually won the game for the humans too!